II. Fashion and how it effects heavy metal circles.

[The Knell]

alright, sabbat are neo thrash...

['pataphysicien]

finally someone cleared that one up!

[Witchkiller]

Yeap ,you can see it in their pictures. Just a bunch of teen aged spoiled lil' brats........................

[MetalizeR]

What the hell, where did he get all those Sabbat patches?

that's the first thing i thought when i first saw that. there's what...6 of them?

...Spending endless hours scouring ebay for patches and bedazzler replacement parts...

I only take a bus and buy a bunch of Sabbat patches in the Metal store...

[Avenger]

first off, nikes are for hip-hoppers....

I see a lot of bands wearing Nike high-tops in old video footage.

[MEXDefenderOfSteel]

first off, nikes are for hip-hoppers....

I see a lot of bands wearing Nike high-tops in old video footage.

i cant remember any...on the other hand, check out MTV nowadays,just any hip hop video.....

[nightsblood]

My 2 cents...
The 'fitting in' mentality does exist in other cliques. I see it all the time on college campuses. Art students, frat boys, sorority girls, etc all tend to go for a certain 'look' and set of behaviors/fashions (listen to certain bands, go to certain places, etc).
I've never lived in an area with an active metal scene so I don't have much 1st-hand experience. Thus, the following is based on observations and stories from other scenes.

From a psychology POV, I think part of the reason we see the cliquish, snobby behavior develop in underground scenes like metal, punk, and gangsta rap is that you're dealing with a set of people who, to some degree, are outcast from the mainstream pop culture society. In short, these people are insulted and demeaned by 'normal' people, so they set up their own sub-culture in which they get to make the rules and judge people, rather than being judged themselves.
At first this may be thought of as a way to express scene unity, identify other people with similar tastes, etc. But as James indicated, it often quickly devolves into rules and codes for judging other people within the sub-culture. The bullied become the bullies. Why? Because it gives them a sense of power and control. Nobody likes being picked on and marginalized, so they vent their frustration by doing the exact same thing to someone else.

Heck, you see hints of it in posts on this forum regularly. A recent thread (I forget which) mentioned that, back in the 80s, bands like Anthrax and Testament were considered great and nobody listened to Manilla Road, but now that is reversed. Someone (Black Axe maybe?) replied (paraphrased), "well, the only people who liked Anthrax and Testament were 'scene people' who couldn't recognize the genius of Manilla Road like the true metal people did". Not to pick on Black Axe (or whoever posted that) but that statement is elitist AND a load of crap.
First, Manilla Road had terrible distrib back in the 80s; you could be a hardcore metal fan and still never come across any of their records. Your only chance to hear MR was via expensive import, tape-trade, or college radio (if the local campus had a good metal show). No myspace, downloads, vibrations of doom, etc. Thus, the main reason the MR fan base was small was because few people got to hear them, not because they heard them and couldn't cope with a 'real' Metal band.
Second, that basically says "anyone who doesn't like manilla road isn't a real metal head". Migts as well just measure hair length or count the number of Holy Terror patches on everyone's vest.
Third, you're comparing 2 thrash bands to an epic-trad metal band. Some folks like one subgenre but not the other.
Fourth, Anthrax and Testament were much more successful than Manilla Road, and that alone will lead some people to dismiss a band as 'not true enough'.

Note: I like a couple of albums by each band, but none of the three are personal favorites, so my post is not meant to stick up for Anthrax/Testament or to slam MR. And apologies if I misunderstood the original author's intent; he/she may not have been trying to sound elitist, but the implication seemed to be that only posers listen(ed) to Anthrax & Testament, which fit with the 'fashion' theme IMO.

['pataphysicien]

good post. I have some thoughts on the bully-bit spread out in a post or two eup there somewhere ^^ that surely is one way of seeing it, but I'm equally sure that many more valid stories could be told (even from different psychological perspectives). I also completely agree with the second part of your post.

[ION BRITTON]

First, Manilla Road had terrible distrib back in the 80s; you could be a hardcore metal fan and still never come across any of their records. Your only chance to hear MR was via expensive import, tape-trade, or college radio (if the local campus had a good metal show). No myspace, downloads, vibrations of doom, etc. Thus, the main reason the MR fan base was small was because few people got to hear them, not because they heard them and couldn't cope with a 'real' Metal band.

I can't say anything against this and it's probably true for the most part. What I want to say though is that some people may listen to MR (or any other similar 80s band) these days not because they have easier access to their material or because their distribution has improved, but because they heard or read somewhere that MR was a great and cult band back then and they think they'd be kinda cool and equally kvlt persons if they become their fans. And probably those are the same people who haven't paid a single penny for any MR album they say they like. I can't argue with the fact that there's also this mentality of 'If want to be true you 'should' worship MR no matter what' that pushes them to that direction, but it's kinda hard to believe that everyone who says that loves MR these days really means it

['pataphysicien]

First, Manilla Road had terrible distrib back in the 80s; you could be a hardcore metal fan and still never come across any of their records. Your only chance to hear MR was via expensive import, tape-trade, or college radio (if the local campus had a good metal show). No myspace, downloads, vibrations of doom, etc. Thus, the main reason the MR fan base was small was because few people got to hear them, not because they heard them and couldn't cope with a 'real' Metal band.

I can't say anything against this and it's probably true for the most part. What I want to say though is that some people may listen to MR (or any other similar 80s band) these days not because they have easier access to their material or because their distribution has improved, but because they heard or read somewhere that MR was a great and cult band back then and they think they'd be kinda cool and equally kvlt persons if they become their fans. And probably those are the same people who haven't paid a single penny for any MR album they say they like. I can't argue with the fact that there's also this mentality of 'If want to be true you 'should' worship MR no matter what' that pushes them to that direction, but it's kinda hard to believe that everyone who says that loves MR these days really means it

I get your concern, which is weird. as always with these untopics. why the fuck do we care so much that other people REALLY mean it when they say they like kvlt band xyz? what the fuck do I, you or anyone care about other peoples connections to music? do we want them to be like us? and who are we anyways? do I like MR like you? I'm sure I don't. btw those are semi-rhetorical questions.

[ION BRITTON]

First, Manilla Road had terrible distrib back in the 80s; you could be a hardcore metal fan and still never come across any of their records. Your only chance to hear MR was via expensive import, tape-trade, or college radio (if the local campus had a good metal show). No myspace, downloads, vibrations of doom, etc. Thus, the main reason the MR fan base was small was because few people got to hear them, not because they heard them and couldn't cope with a 'real' Metal band.

I can't say anything against this and it's probably true for the most part. What I want to say though is that some people may listen to MR (or any other similar 80s band) these days not because they have easier access to their material or because their distribution has improved, but because they heard or read somewhere that MR was a great and cult band back then and they think they'd be kinda cool and equally kvlt persons if they become their fans. And probably those are the same people who haven't paid a single penny for any MR album they say they like. I can't argue with the fact that there's also this mentality of 'If want to be true you 'should' worship MR no matter what' that pushes them to that direction, but it's kinda hard to believe that everyone who says that loves MR these days really means it

I get your concern, which is weird. as always with these untopics. why the fuck do we care so much that other people REALLY mean it when they say they like kvlt band xyz? what the fuck do I, you or anyone care about other peoples connections to music? do we want them to be like us? and who are we anyways? do I like MR like you? I'm sure I don't. btw those are semi-rhetorical questions.

Although you can understand to some degree when/if other believe what they say and if their actions are consistent with their words, I don't really care if they really mean it or not, just made a comment on it based on some observations of mine. I am allowed to make one right? It's not my goal to make others like me nor make them think the way I do, simply don't give a damn about it. We are simply discussing some things, don't stretch it too far each and every time discussions like this one occurs, we are not going to start a crusade to crucify the 'unbelievers' and the 'false' ones.

[Black Axe]

We're not?

This is the internet. Unless you know a person personally, they could lie about just about everything. They might've never heard a heavy metal record and just read up on the metal archives a few hours per day.

[Witchkiller]

I get your concern, which is weird. as always with these untopics. why the fuck do we care so much that other people REALLY mean it when they say they like kvlt band xyz? what the fuck do I, you or anyone care about other peoples connections to music? do we want them to be like us? and who are we anyways? do I like MR like you? I'm sure I don't. btw those are semi-rhetorical questions.

cool post man and i mean it! Those few lines sum up the attitude one should have.............

['pataphysicien]

I can't say anything against this and it's probably true for the most part. What I want to say though is that some people may listen to MR (or any other similar 80s band) these days not because they have easier access to their material or because their distribution has improved, but because they heard or read somewhere that MR was a great and cult band back then and they think they'd be kinda cool and equally kvlt persons if they become their fans. And probably those are the same people who haven't paid a single penny for any MR album they say they like. I can't argue with the fact that there's also this mentality of 'If want to be true you 'should' worship MR no matter what' that pushes them to that direction, but it's kinda hard to believe that everyone who says that loves MR these days really means it

I get your concern, which is weird. as always with these untopics. why the fuck do we care so much that other people REALLY mean it when they say they like kvlt band xyz? what the fuck do I, you or anyone care about other peoples connections to music? do we want them to be like us? and who are we anyways? do I like MR like you? I'm sure I don't. btw those are semi-rhetorical questions.

Although you can understand to some degree when/if other believe what they say and if their actions are consistent with their words, I don't really care if they really mean it or not, just made a comment on it based on some observations of mine. I am allowed to make one right? It's not my goal to make others like me nor make them think the way I do, simply don't give a damn about it. We are simply discussing some things, don't stretch it too far each and every time discussions like this one occurs, we are not going to start a crusade to crucify the 'unbelievers' and the 'false' ones.

yeah, it sort of is a point I get hung up on. sorry if it became too much, I think I've gotten most of it out of my system now. I just think the impulse to doubt others dedication as if there was a true way of enjoying music is interesting. I didn't mean to judge you, not least because I hypocritically enough look down on 'the false' all the time. even though to me it clearly is ridiculous (though only in a clear minute). I just like pointing out weird contradictions in cultures (even if this one is the one I perhaps feel most at home in) because little rhetorical tools like that can have very real effects, like making exclusion a legitimate thing.

and you're of course right, straight out lying about ones musical loves because one wants to be accepted is just sad. that's the one instance where 'poser' actually becomes a meaningful word. edith: ha! to come full circle. why would someone even feel the need to lie like that? because she wants to be accepted by the cool gang who wield the poser-hammer. thanks that actually helped me finish a thought. over and out, nothing to be seen here.