II. Fashion and how it effects heavy metal circles.

[Nightlock]

[Continued from 'Fashion' topic in Land of Mystery forum - Edited the title to make it more comprehensible. /Mod]

Another observation I like to discuss related to how I've distanced myself from the Melbourne heavy metal scene. I came to the conclusion it was because generally the people just weren't very nice... Now I know this isn't making a lot of sense but keen reading... I then asked myself; why are they this way? Just coincidence I've come across a whole bunch of people that for the most part are bitter and feel the need to put people down and be pricks in general? or is there some bigger cause in action?

After discussing it with a close friend who used to be very closely associated with the scene. They came up with the very interesting theory that one of the main reasons the scene is this way is basically because the whole infer structure is based on a lack of individuality. Everyone almost dresses the same (i.e. band shirts, leather jackets, jeans, patch jacket, high top sneakers etc). It's not that hard to understand why there's this fucked hierarchy where the 'cooler' guys call the 'uncool' guys posers and are generally pricks towards anyone who hasn't earnt enough 'scene cred'.

Now I'm sure this doesn't happen everywhere in the world, but from my experience and based on what I've seen on much more than one heavy metal internet forum. It's not just happening here in Melbourne and a pretty common occurrence. What do you guys think? Can it for the most part be lead back to the fashion and unity of the clothing? Is it communism failing again? Is it just angry people who are into angry music? or is it something altogether different?

P.S. the communism comment was an uninformed bad joke and I occasionally enjoy calling a band posers if their music lacks individuality and is made with false intentions. Am I a hypocrite?

['pataphysicien]

Am I a hypocrite?

yes, we all are. there are always mechanisms for making 'in' and 'out'-groups. in metal there is the true/poser divide and because it is adolescent boys (no matter what age) we're talking about they'll use it to be cooler, put others down etc. as they please. fashion is only one way to do it.

[Nightlock]

Yes of course but I'm talking about how it's such a predominate factor in heavy metal circles that this happens and why, over the last year I've found friendship circles elsewhere where this kind of thing doesn't exist at all and if it does it's on an individual - individual basis. What I'm asking is why is it such a phenomenon in heavy metal everywhere in the world?

[ION BRITTON]

As far as I can remember all these years I've been listening to metal the vast majority cared much more about their 'looks' and the way they dressed than the music itself.

['pataphysicien]

Yes of course but I'm talking about how it's such a predominate factor in heavy metal circles that this happens and why, over the last year I've found friendship circles elsewhere where this kind of thing doesn't exist at all and if it does it's on an individual - individual basis. What I'm asking is why is it such a phenomenon in heavy metal everywhere in the world?

adolescent males is still my answer and metal themes of toughness, warriors, drinking, heavy etc. who gathers more stereotypical tough guy themes? hardcore maybe, but they balance it with what looks like a quite positive common ideology. sweeping generalizations of course, but just look at how explicit some of those early poser-slaying songs are. it's right there. the best tool for idiot behavior, comes so to say as part of the heavy metal inventory. play with us, get these tools

- warrior imagery
- battle imagery
- the words false, poser and poseur (alternate spelling)
- suggest that others 'leave the hall'
- tough metal accessories for your clothes
- rebellious themes 'it's better to reign with satan in hell than to serve god in heavenlol'
- feel like an outsider, treat others like outsiders
- [add your metal stereotype here]

I'd say you'll get that prototype category of treating others like shit for silly reasons in ALL kinds of circles though. take the hip indie kids, the artsy circles, whatever. the relaxed alt-kids, I've peripherally experienced it there too. though it's a much less unified 'tool-kit', as you said it's more likely to be made explicitly personal. luckily my friends (mainly not-metal kids) were never the kind to play along with such games. which is why they were my friends in the first place. or so I like to think of us at least.

['pataphysicien]

come to think of it gangsta rap and punk probably come pretty close to metal in terms of exclusion-readiness. not surprising for rap because they like to explicitly announce superiority, always a bit puzzling in the case of punks. still, massive generalizations I wouldn't want to defend. edith: like metal both of these are pretty standard uniform groups for the 'hard core'. so to make it more specific to your question: the degree of uniformity in scene clothing probably has something to do with it. first, all other scenes are 'false', so if you're wearing the wrong, non-metal stuff you're in trouble. second, if you're doing the metal style you can still go 'false' at so many turns it's incredible. false patch, false band, not authentic enough, spandex too new, jacket too clean, and fuckety fuckfuck else.

[MetalizeR]

[MEXDefenderOfSteel]

first off, nikes are for hip-hoppers....

[Nightlock]

Yes of course but I'm talking about how it's such a predominate factor in heavy metal circles that this happens and why, over the last year I've found friendship circles elsewhere where this kind of thing doesn't exist at all and if it does it's on an individual - individual basis. What I'm asking is why is it such a phenomenon in heavy metal everywhere in the world?

adolescent males is still my answer and metal themes of toughness, warriors, drinking, heavy etc. who gathers more stereotypical tough guy themes? hardcore maybe, but they balance it with what looks like a quite positive common ideology. sweeping generalizations of course, but just look at how explicit some of those early poser-slaying songs are. it's right there. the best tool for idiot behavior, comes so to say as part of the heavy metal inventory. play with us, get these tools

- warrior imagery
- battle imagery
- the words false, poser and poseur (alternate spelling)
- suggest that others 'leave the hall'
- tough metal accessories for your clothes
- rebellious themes 'it's better to reign with satan in hell than to serve god in heavenlol'
- feel like an outsider, treat others like outsiders
- [add your metal stereotype here]

'pataphysicien, I'm still going to have to disagree. I still think there's some kind of bigger social trend in play here than just immaturity. Though maybe it is more a combination of multiple things rather than just one big reason. It's all meant to just get people thinking and speculating as well.

The same reason hip hop and punk circles are the same they idolize and emulate idols and have no sense of self so put down anyone who's not doing it well. Though for some reason my contact with punk circles they've generally been a lot nicer guys.

[GJ]

I just wanna say that I don't get any of this. Still...

...as for metallers (of any sort - and speaking very generally) sporting a kind of flock mentality it may have to do with it's working class origins. Where solidarity and loyalty* to your own kind are being held high - sometimes at the expense of individuality.

The bigger the flock the stupider it's members, sort of.

*See Maiden's (and others') seemingly life-long praisal of the loyality from their fans - in this sense fans of shorter period artists and one hit wonders may well be even "truer" - musically speaking.

['pataphysicien]

Yes of course but I'm talking about how it's such a predominate factor in heavy metal circles that this happens and why, over the last year I've found friendship circles elsewhere where this kind of thing doesn't exist at all and if it does it's on an individual - individual basis. What I'm asking is why is it such a phenomenon in heavy metal everywhere in the world?

adolescent males is still my answer and metal themes of toughness, warriors, drinking, heavy etc. who gathers more stereotypical tough guy themes? hardcore maybe, but they balance it with what looks like a quite positive common ideology. sweeping generalizations of course, but just look at how explicit some of those early poser-slaying songs are. it's right there. the best tool for idiot behavior, comes so to say as part of the heavy metal inventory. play with us, get these tools

- warrior imagery
- battle imagery
- the words false, poser and poseur (alternate spelling)
- suggest that others 'leave the hall'
- tough metal accessories for your clothes
- rebellious themes 'it's better to reign with satan in hell than to serve god in heavenlol'
- feel like an outsider, treat others like outsiders
- [add your metal stereotype here]

'pataphysicien, I'm still going to have to disagree. I still think there's some kind of bigger social trend in play here than just immaturity. Though maybe it is more a combination of multiple things rather than just one big reason. It's all meant to just get people thinking and speculating as well.

The same reason hip hop and punk circles are the same they idolize and emulate idols and have no sense of self so put down anyone who's not doing it well. Though for some reason my contact with punk circles they've generally been a lot nicer guys.

yeah, it was not meant as an end-all answer. I think punks have the true/untrue concept as well, but I haven't spent enough time with them to really understand how they use it. most punks I met didn't seem to care at all (a good thing in my book). as for the "bigger social trend" I wouldn't go there, really. what have you gained by for example speculating about "working class origins" causing this and that. I'd say once you start telling stories at that level of generality you can tell pretty much anything if you are rhetorically fit. so you can argue for it, but the specific mechanisms by which things happen will be obscure i. e "his working class origins made him beat his wife". that's why I like to start with specifics, differences that make a practical difference. and language can be a pretty revealing one. the act of saying that others are not "real" in some way, that they are only faking it, is a pretty powerful mechanism. if you want a bigger picture I'd suggest studying more nitty gritty details like that. the picture will get more complex, but more true to the world as well. so yes, there most certainly are many small reasons. sorry for the nerding, I am writing atm and that tends to bleed into everything else.

[daniel]

Relating to the first Fashion thread as well, from what I've seen this dress-code crap and judging of others looks is even worse in other circles so I don't know where the idea that metal is the pits comes from.

['pataphysicien]

James' (thought I read that name somewhere?) first hand experience, in his particular city. I get that feeling quite a bit too though, at the few festivals I attend, but most clearly on forums. not that it would be so much about fashion on the internet, but the competition for being metal comes out in other forms. from my experience metal forums tend to be more tense, but then again there are not that many others I really frequent. perhaps I also tend to frequent the more tense ones because paradoxically that's something I'm looking for? that being said, the Corroseum still is the friendliest one, where people are most ready to have open discussions, for example on untrue issues like this.

edith: forgive me for hogging the thread once more with tldr text, but you touch on issues I've long been struggling with. so this thread just got me going again.

another way to look at exclusionary practices in music cultures could look at the 'scenester' making the 'scene'. I'm not using it in a derogatory manner, but more just to describe what that character does. people that invest a lot of themselves into music culture and work to shape it according to their preferences. the other way around then self-understandings become closely tied to specific ways of living that culture. the self-perceived 'hard core' then has much more to loose than the ones that don't feel so fully invested in the practices of that culture. from that way of thinking scenes you'd expect those people most fully invested into heavy metal as a comprehensive way of life to be most interested in exclusion of the 'false': the scene is mine, it's my definitions that should matter, my fashion dogmas etc.

that analysis is totally ahistoric though. I'd expect things to be very nuancedly different for specific groups, in specific times. again, that's why I'd rather look in detail at how exclusion works in your specific city, with those specific people, with their (specific?) tools. if you had more of those analyses you might come up with analogous stories. maybe there are similar mechanisms at work?

[vansinne]

What the hell, where did he get all those Sabbat patches?

[jared]

What the hell, where did he get all those Sabbat patches?

that's the first thing i thought when i first saw that. there's what...6 of them?