Nazi- & other extreme political images?

Derrick Metaliszta · Post by **Derrick Metaliszta** » Fri Jul 27, 2007 1:18 pm

Khnud wrote:Look, if a band wants to sing about Nazi ideology, Attila the Bun, communism, nihilism and whatnot, it's not really my problem as long as it's just lyrics. You don't expect every band to acually believe in what they're singing about, do you?

What? Of course I would expect that. What do you mean "just lyrics"? When you say something do you say "just words"?

Helm · Post by **Helm** » Fri Jul 27, 2007 1:21 pm

Remember i told you Stalin-Metal?

It's just that I don't know any Stalin-Metal so I started discussing generally communist-russia metal.

Surely they don't. The way you put it now seems more solid for me and i can't say that i disagree with you. See especially the underlined words, which are key words/phrases in order to make a healthy discussion, and not draw final conclusions for anyone.

Fair enough. You shouldn't misconstrue 'No Nazi shit!' (which is a very healthy and personal cry of reason on all aspects of my life) with some sort of objectivist and extremist point of view, I am very relativist generally.

We may don't know each other in person but i can assure you that i, John, wouldn't have posted in any forum if i didn't believe that.

Good to know, John.

I certianly do not enjoy the same way a song whose lyrics i identify with and another one whose lyrics i find boring or uninterested or stupid, but good well-played notes remain good well-played notes.

That's where we differ. A good well-played song is a 'hook' for me in Heavy Metal. The first few times I listen to it I can listen to it only for the 'hook'. But if there's no aesthetic of interest or one that I respect to support, it quickly fades away. I can only enduringly rally behind 'these fucking awesome riffs, man!' if I've come to respect what the band seems to be about. This is why as a youngster I listened to Deicide (some awesome riffs in there!) and as an adult I no longer do so.

What? Of course I would expect that. What do you mean "just lyrics"? When you say something do you say "just words"?

Strongly seconded, even much more than in regular discussion (which I excuse and allow it to be 'just words' most of the time). Heavy Metal for me is about Passion, Vision, Honesty. Honesty is a big part of the Troika

If you don't believe what you're singing, you're morally bankrupt.

Khnud · Post by **Khnud** » Fri Jul 27, 2007 1:25 pm

Derrick Metaliszta wrote:
What? Of course I would expect that. What do you mean "just lyrics"? When you say something do you say "just words"?

Look, there's quite obviously a difference between writing about stuff that fascinates you, and about stuff you believe in. Take Slayer for example - lots of songs about anti-christianity, but Tom Arya is a catholic. Compare this to a band consisting of people who actually believejews should be exterminated, and you see it's not quite the same thing.

Derrick Metaliszta · Post by **Derrick Metaliszta** » Fri Jul 27, 2007 1:31 pm

Khnud wrote:However, we do have a certain number of bands in Sweden closely tied to the White Power Movement (or whatever it's called nowadays). If I were to buy records from them, my money would surely help finance Nazi rallies, propaganda etc. And this is definitely where I draw the line. When lyrics aren't just lyrics anymore, but a statement for something the band actually believes in, and it's radically different from my standpoints, I just don't want to play ball anymore. There's no way in hell I'm supporting them in any way.

Most probably 99.9% of the bands who sing about supporting racism are surely a part of racist movements and organizations! How can you think otherwise having such a situation in Sweden?
Only a very small percentage of bands have truly sported nazi paraphernalia for pure shock value, like for example Mein Kampf & Rommel, and they actually didn't even have lyrics about nazis or racism. An exception could be the extreme Brazilian bands from the 80's, but still their lyrics weren't supportive of nazism, just descriptive.

Derrick Metaliszta · Post by **Derrick Metaliszta** » Fri Jul 27, 2007 1:40 pm

Khnud wrote:
Look, there's quite obviously a difference between writing about stuff that fascinates you, and about stuff you believe in. Take Slayer for example - lots of songs about anti-christianity, but Tom Arya is a catholic. Compare this to a band consisting of people who actually believejews should be exterminated, and you see it's not quite the same thing.

Do you mean being fascinated by and writing lyrics dealing with history, about World War II, or writing lyrics which support nazi and other racist ideologies? There is certainly a huge difference. The lyrics from "Angel of Death" are not aiming at the same direction as those by one of these NSBM bands.

I don't really like Slayer or Tom Araya, so I don't know if he's a practicing Catholic, or just a Catholic cause he was baptized at birth. But I don't think it would make sense if he personally said he's a practicing catholic and is fascinated with anti-christianity. It's like being a catholic practicing priest and saying you're fascinated by prostitution, murder, cheating, and whatnot. How can one be fascinated by something which goes completely against what you fully believe in?

Khnud · Post by **Khnud** » Fri Jul 27, 2007 1:52 pm

Derrick Metaliszta wrote:Do you mean being fascinated by and writing lyrics dealing with history, about World War II, or writing lyrics which support nazi and other racist ideologies?

The former. Lots of well known bands sing about history and the Third Reich (e.g. Motörhead), without them having any nazi sympaties whatsoever. This is perfectly fine in my book. But people who sing about Nazism and believe in it, can all go to hell as far as I'm concerned.

Derrick Metaliszta · Post by **Derrick Metaliszta** » Fri Jul 27, 2007 1:58 pm

Khnud wrote:The former. Lots of well known bands sing about history and the Third Reich (e.g. Motörhead), without them having any nazi sympaties whatsoever. This is perfectly fine in my book. But people who sing about Nazism and believe in it, can all go to hell as far as I'm concerned.

I understand. I was confused since your original post said "if a band wants to sing about Nazi ideology" and I think that's different from singing about World War II history.

Khnud · Post by **Khnud** » Fri Jul 27, 2007 2:13 pm

My bad.

Helm · Post by **Helm** » Fri Jul 27, 2007 2:13 pm

The former. Lots of well known bands sing about history and the Third Reich (e.g. Motörhead), without them having any nazi sympaties whatsoever.

Would these bands carry a swastika on their logo? And this isn't a loaded question, I know full well about the early Motorhead snuggletooth with swastika on the fore of his helmet.

Khnud · Post by **Khnud** » Fri Jul 27, 2007 2:23 pm

If I remember correctly, a big part of Motörheads early stage props would include nazi flags and other memorabilia. Lemmy's been an avid collector of all things nazi since uh, forever.

But to answer Helm's question - no. I don't think they would mount a swastika on the cover. The symbol is too offensive to way too many people.

Helm · Post by **Helm** » Fri Jul 27, 2007 2:49 pm

Wouldn't you then agree that a good way to avoid idiot nazis would be to simply not listen to bands that throw swastikas in their logos, or name themselves after Hitler's books, or have pictures of nazi marches on their covers and so on?

Of course there's the more insidious type of race hate music where they subvert the usage of runes, viking (and othertype) mythology and whatnot to serve much the same ends, but we're talking about a reasonable first step precaution.

Khnud · Post by **Khnud** » Fri Jul 27, 2007 3:26 pm

Both yes and no. I try to be an open-minded person, and not judge a book by its cover, but then again, whenever I see an album with a cover of the sort you're mentioning, a huge warning siren goes off.

Fucking Åmål · Post by **Fucking Åmål** » Fri Jul 27, 2007 3:45 pm

Evrything in life has it's opposite.Christian-AntiChristian
Communist-Nazist.I don't see where the point.We have democracy right?Everyone is free to do what he believes(especially when he wants to produce music).Music is the mirror of artist's soul.The bands who sing all the time about dragons,swords and castles have better lyrics?
It has become trend for the youth(also the metal youth) to be either communist
or anarcho-punk.But just this movement has made many people react and have
a total opposite or semi opposite belief.Action-Reaction.

peterott · Post by **peterott** » Fri Jul 27, 2007 6:11 pm

the only trouble I had when I was DJ-ing in the early/mid-90es some Metal Nights in our youthcenter was with skinheads, sometimes referred to Neonazis, as they were doing their sieg heiling wearing the white pride tattoos and behaving like assholes. So one can imagine what happened... long-haired Metal freaks and local punks normally attending the youthcenter throwing and beating alltogether these assholes out of the club.

Crows In Black · Post by **Crows In Black** » Sat Jul 28, 2007 3:35 am

a lot of Japanese bands just used nazi image for shock value but it ran from underground bands like Rosenfeld:

To one of the most popular Japanese bands ever, Luna Sea (more of a goth/rock similar to Dead End):