Helloween&Candlemass false messiahs of doom & power

FenderMedium · Post by **FenderMedium** » Fri Jun 22, 2007 9:53 am

Many times we've heard the statement "Helloween created power metal" and Candlemass are milestone of doom metal and sometimes people even go on to say they even created it the genre,because they were the most known band at that point they were projected to a status which they do not deserve just because of one album,why are people so quick to adopt these blanket terms and claim them as concrete fact?

I will agree helloween pioneered power metal as we know it today or that candlemass was a pioneer of the epic doom subgenre but I will never agree with these outrageous claims of them being creators of entire genres.

I would expect this from someone who wasn't even into metal at all but half the people saying this shit are and have been into metal for many years and still claim such stupid things as fact.

There are even some who don't know what doom and power metal are which is pretty weird, what are your guys views on this phenomenon and what kind of idiots have you encountered saying such things?

Nicko McBuff · Post by **Nicko McBuff** » Fri Jun 22, 2007 10:12 am

My view is these people don't get out there and listen to enough heavy metal from the 70s/80s!

DMR · Post by **DMR** » Fri Jun 22, 2007 7:07 pm

I'm one of those idiots who believes Helloween created power metal. If they didn't, who did?

FenderMedium · Post by **FenderMedium** » Fri Jun 22, 2007 7:20 pm

DMR wrote:I'm one of those idiots who believes Helloween created power metal. If they didn't, who did?

DMR wrote:My favorite band of all time is Gamma Ray. I love Helloween, Blind Guardian, Rhapsody, the first three Children of Bodom albums, old In Flames, Ram It Down, Turisas... the list goes on and on.

Helloween created flower metal, power metal as a genre was created by americans and european bands quickly followed, you can say Helloween created "modern power metal" but they did not create the genre.

The term refers to two different but related styles: the first pioneered and largely practiced in North America with a harder sound similar to speed metal, and a later more widespread and popular style based in Europe (Especialy Germany, Italy and Scandinavia) with a lighter, more melodic sound and making frequent use of keyboards.

UriahHeep · Post by **UriahHeep** » Fri Jun 22, 2007 7:59 pm

On the subject of German PM roots, somebody should check out the Scorpions song "Coming Home" (after the long intro section) or even "He's a Woman, She's a Man" from all the way back in '77. Both songs have an early power metal feel. It's not as fast as Helloween's debut, but I like it much more. Helloween covered "He's a Woman...", by the way.

Crimson Angel · Post by **Crimson Angel** » Fri Jun 22, 2007 11:02 pm

Well, there are a lot of differences between US power and EU power. US power is based and linked with speed and maybe thrash metal, whereas the EU power influences come from hard rock and heavy metal (Uriah Heep, Scorpions, Rainbow, Europe, Accept) I like both styles and think that it is a little bit difficult to compare bands such as Helloween, Blind Guardian, Stratovarius, Gamma Ray and more with bands like Attacker, Helstar, Jag Panzer e.t.c. because they sound completely different!

Fucking Åmål · Post by **Fucking Åmål** » Sat Jun 23, 2007 12:37 pm

HELLOWEENS-Keeper's are classics and two discs that i worship although i still prefer more ''Walls Of Jericho''.As for Candlemass i never thought they played doom(i don't like still the term) for me it is Heavy Metal and surely Candlemass were one of the best ones.So...

FenderMedium · Post by **FenderMedium** » Sat Jun 23, 2007 12:51 pm

But will you agree they didn't create power metal as a whole? I don't see how you have such a problem calling candlemass doom metal,Its far too slow to call heavy metal in any way,mercy is one of those bands that I wouldn't know to call heavy metal or doom metal as their material contains songs from both genre.

Fucking Åmål · Post by **Fucking Åmål** » Sat Jun 23, 2007 1:04 pm

FenderMedium wrote:But will you agree they didn't create power metal as a whole? I don't see how you have such a problem calling candlemass doom metal,Its far too slow to call heavy metal in any way,mercy is one of those bands that I wouldn't know to call heavy metal or doom metal as their material contains songs from both genre.

Yes in some kind of way i don't like the labelling of genres.I prefer to call it HM no matter if they are slow.Helloween where the main influence for bands like Heavens Gate,Blind Guardian,Chroming Rose and later the whole German Power Metal movement.Kai Hansen is the European Power Metal inventor for me look from his leads,solos,riffs everything has influenced others.I think at least it is better to call Helloween power metal fathers than others who call EUROPE the power metal fathers.''Final Countdown''-Power Metal?

Crimson Angel · Post by **Crimson Angel** » Sat Jun 23, 2007 1:14 pm

Fucking Åmål wrote:I think at least it is better to call Helloween power metal fathers than others who call EUROPE the power metal fathers.''Final Countdown''-Power Metal?

No. But perhaps songs like In The Future to Come, Seven Doors Hotel, Stormwind, Scream of Anger can be considered as pre-power.

DMR · Post by **DMR** » Sat Jun 23, 2007 2:59 pm

FenderMedium wrote:
DMR wrote:I'm one of those idiots who believes Helloween created power metal. If they didn't, who did?
Helloween created flower metal, power metal as a genre was created by americans and european bands quickly followed, you can say Helloween created "modern power metal" but they did not create the genre.

You didn't answer my question. Could you be more specific than just "Americans"?

FenderMedium wrote:The term refers to two different but related styles: the first pioneered and largely practiced in North America with a harder sound similar to speed metal, and a later more widespread and popular style based in Europe (Especialy Germany, Italy and Scandinavia) with a lighter, more melodic sound and making frequent use of keyboards.

Crimson Angel wrote:Well, there are a lot of differences between US power and EU power. US power is based and linked with speed and maybe thrash metal, whereas the EU power influences come from hard rock and heavy metal (Uriah Heep, Scorpions, Rainbow, Europe, Accept) I like both styles and think that it is a little bit difficult to compare bands such as Helloween, Blind Guardian, Stratovarius, Gamma Ray and more with bands like Attacker, Helstar, Jag Panzer e.t.c. because they sound completely different!

Let me get this straight. There are two different subgenres of metal with the same name. The original American version is related to speed metal and the Euro version is more melodic and influenced by "regular" heavy metal. But if that's the case, how come Jag Panzer and Helstar are so much slower than Helloween and Gamma Ray? And weren't the American bands influenced by heavy metal anyway? I thought speed metal was just fast heavy metal.

Crimson Angel · Post by **Crimson Angel** » Sat Jun 23, 2007 3:12 pm

DMR wrote:Let me get this straight. There are two different subgenres of metal with the same name. The original American version is related to speed metal and the Euro version is more melodic and influenced by "regular" heavy metal. But if that's the case, how come Jag Panzer and Helstar are so much slower than Helloween and Gamma Ray? And weren't the American bands influenced by heavy metal anyway? I thought speed metal was just fast heavy metal.

The point is that American power is more "rough" and the European more "melodic" with influences from classical music. Compare Licensed To Kill with Eagle Fly Free for example

FenderMedium · Post by **FenderMedium** » Sat Jun 23, 2007 3:20 pm

No one band is responsible for entire genres that is why the whole helloween created power metal argument is ridiculous to begin with, as for those american bands I would say the are a mixture of heavy metal and thrash metal not speed metal, they took the choppy riffs and aggression from thrash metal but not necessarily always speed,they are the true definition of power metal and what the term was coined for because they actually had power.

See Metal Church,Sanctuary,Jag Panzer,Griffin,Exxplorer,Liege Lord,Phantom,Malice,Obsession,Culprit,Commander,Helstar,Hexx,Overlorde,Oliver Magnum,Lords of the Crimson Alliance,Night Crawler etc.

solar eagle · Post by **solar eagle** » Sat Jun 23, 2007 3:38 pm

I can't see the reason why we shouldn't call the early Europe a pre-power metal band.Check their 2 first albums.

FenderMedium · Post by **FenderMedium** » Sat Jun 23, 2007 3:54 pm

Their first two albums were released when US Power Metal was in full force and german bands already had a power metal template established.