Copyright Legal / Not Legal

[Glockose]

I think we've talked about this before but I would like to try and clear it up once and for all.

1) If a band rights a song (but doesn't copyright it for themselves) and signs to a label (and the label copyrights all the songs under there name)
AND the band signs ALL the rights away for any use of these songs to said label.

Can the band ever release these songs on there own without getting the OK from the label???????


If they do release it without the concent of the label (Copyright holder) is it a BOOT???

[ION BRITTON]

Common sense says 'yes', a lawyer or anyone who's familiar with those legal issues should be able to give you a sure answer quite easily, I think.

[Shadow Kingdom]

I think we've talked about this before but I would like to try and clear it up once and for all.

1) If a band rights a song (but doesn't copyright it for themselves) and signs to a label (and the label copyrights all the songs under there name)
AND the band signs ALL the rights away for any use of these songs to said label.

Can the band ever release these songs on there own without getting the OK from the label???????


If they do release it without the concent of the label (Copyright holder) is it a BOOT???

Techinally I would think the label would have to go out of business before they could legally in a court of law put the songs out again and re copyright them in their own name.

Yes it's a BOOT. Bands bootleg their own releases before. I'm not going to name any names, but I know for 100% sure it's been done before.

[Glockose]

Sorry you had to move this. I thought I was putting it in the right place


I agree with both of you.
Here is the reason for the post

When OPM released Apollo Ra. We signed a contract with the Copyright owner. Neon City Productions, Not with the band.

About 1 year after the LP came out 2 members of the band contacted me.
1st one very mad and yelling that I "Bootlegged" his record. After a short explanation he said I was right and just hung up. The 2nd was very nice from the start and already knew they had signed ALL there rights away years before when they were young and dumb, I offered him some free copies and the contact info for NCP. He left very happy.

Unisound contacted the band (I have been told) years later (I don't know who in the band) and they signed a contacted (again I have been told) to release the LP now of CD. (Even used My (OPM) Artwork)


Now this week another label contacted me asking for a little help as they would like to release the LP on CD again BUT legit. So I got them in touch with NCP. In the mean time Unisound has started yelling that they have a sign contract and there CD is Legit and they own the rights...

To me this is just Crazy.

Man I am glad I stopped putting stuff out before this CD crazy............

[Glockose]

Techinally I would think the label would have to go out of business before they could legally in a court of law put the songs out again and re copyright them in their own name.

Not really true either

Centry Media released some of the Combat releases on CD a few years back (8-10 maybe). Combat had already been out of business for some time by then but someone still owed all the rights. They purchased them and released the CD's without the bands ever knowing or getting paid..

[Shadow Kingdom]

Techinally I would think the label would have to go out of business before they could legally in a court of law put the songs out again and re copyright them in their own name.

Not really true either

Centry Media released some of the Combat releases on CD a few years back (8-10 maybe). Combat had already been out of business for some time by then but someone still owed all the rights. They purchased them and released the CD's without the bands ever knowing or getting paid..

Did they buy the rights from the Combat business before they went under?

There could be a difference between going out of business and/or closing the business, but still registered as a business with the government.

My definitions:

Going out of business = sending the proper paperwork into the government to close all business affairs.

Closing the business = stopping all business, but still registered and filing $0 income at the end of each year.

I'm not saying those are EXACT definitions, I'm saying that's how I'm using them to make an explanation.

Also it depends on how the contracts read. It could read that the owner if they go out of business can still own copyrights.

I don't think there's a black and white answer, there will be some gray depending on the contracts these bands signed.

This is why things are much different today than it was in the 80's. The big labels still buy and own all of the music, while the smaller label get license deals while the band retains their own copy and publishing rights.

I've been doing a lot of research on copy, publishing, mechanical, synch rights lately... There's a lot to learn....

[Glockose]

If memory severs my right
They filled chapter 11 and went under.
At that time the bank auctioned all the meteral off to the highest bidder who was someone from within Combat.

It was years later the CM purchased the catalog and the rights.

[Shadow Kingdom]

If memory severs my right
They filled chapter 11 and went under.
At that time the bank auctioned all the meteral off to the highest bidder who was someone from within Combat.

It was years later the CM purchased the catalog and the rights.

Well they might have had a clause in the contract saying if they go bankrupt or go out of business they still own the right to sell off rights to a 3rd party. Since Combat was a big label, I wouldn't doubt they had that in their contract. Some of these contracts are a million pages long. I think my contract is 8 pages long just for a License deal. If it's scooping all the rights up, I can see it expanding to 20, 30 pages.

In your situation with Apollo Ra, I'd have to read that contract they had between NCP and the band. Because even though a band might be "young and dumb", NCP might not have the legal right to sell licence deals to 3rd parties if they're out of business...?

Like I said I think it will always be a gray area and this is why a lot of bands don't like to sign off their copyrights to labels or they're locked into some horror story years later.

[Glockose]

If memory severs my right
They filled chapter 11 and went under.
At that time the bank auctioned all the meteral off to the highest bidder who was someone from within Combat.

It was years later the CM purchased the catalog and the rights.

Well they might have had a clause in the contract saying if they go bankrupt or go out of business they still own the right to sell off rights to a 3rd party. Since Combat was a big label, I wouldn't doubt they had that in their contract. Some of these contracts are a million pages long. I think my contract is 8 pages long just for a License deal. If it's scooping all the rights up, I can see it expanding to 20, 30 pages.

In your situation with Apollo Ra, I'd have to read that contract they had between NCP and the band. Because even though a band might be "young and dumb", NCP might not have the legal right to sell licence deals to 3rd parties if they're out of business...?

Like I said I think it will always be a gray area and this is why a lot of bands don't like to sign off their copyrights to labels or they're locked into some horror story years later.

NCP is not out of Business
It is Carl Canedy from the Rods

[Shadow Kingdom]

Then to answer your question I think you licensed the album 100% legal then.

I really don't see the point of a label retaining the rights of bands if they're not going to do anything with it.

I know the bigger labels like Earache, Relapse, Century Media, buy the copyrights from the bands, but I feel that bands should ask for clauses that if they don't do anything with the album (like keep the album in print) for say "x" number of years that they can get their rights back.

I think that's fair.

[Glockose]

Then to answer your question I think you licensed the album 100% legal then.

I really don't see the point of a label retaining the rights of bands if they're not going to do anything with it.

I know the bigger labels like Earache, Relapse, Century Media, buy the copyrights from the bands, but I feel that bands should ask for clauses that if they don't do anything with the album (like keep the album in print) for say "x" number of years that they can get their rights back.

I think that's fair.

I'm with you but back in the day it was not like that.
We all kow the stories of Sharpnel..

I have a contract from NNR around somewhere that was just crazy. But I am sure someone signed it. Stating they had the rights to everything you did musicly for like 20 years.. you could have been 10 bands down the road they still owned it.. Crazy...

[Shadow Kingdom]

Yeah I know about NRR too! crazy indeed.

I really would like to re-press the DREAM DEATH LP, but I have to license it from NRR cause the band doesn't own crap.

[ION BRITTON]

Sorry you had to move this. I thought I was putting it in the right place


I agree with both of you.
Here is the reason for the post

When OPM released Apollo Ra. We signed a contract with the Copyright owner. Neon City Productions, Not with the band.

About 1 year after the LP came out 2 members of the band contacted me.
1st one very mad and yelling that I "Bootlegged" his record. After a short explanation he said I was right and just hung up. The 2nd was very nice from the start and already knew they had signed ALL there rights away years before when they were young and dumb, I offered him some free copies and the contact info for NCP. He left very happy.

Unisound contacted the band (I have been told) years later (I don't know who in the band) and they signed a contacted (again I have been told) to release the LP now of CD. (Even used My (OPM) Artwork)


Now this week another label contacted me asking for a little help as they would like to release the LP on CD again BUT legit. So I got them in touch with NCP. In the mean time Unisound has started yelling that they have a sign contract and there CD is Legit and they own the rights...

To me this is just Crazy.

Man I am glad I stopped putting stuff out before this CD crazy............

I had exchanged several e-mails with the drummer Steven Albinak few years ago, quite cool guy. He didn't sound mad or anything when he was asked about the OPM release. I have kept his e-mails and here's a part of his reply:

You also asked about the "official release" comment on Ra Pariah. What happened with the vinyl release was that OPM approached Carl about it, and Carl okayed it, but somehow forgot to tell us about it! We only talk with Carl a few times a year and this happened between a couple of those times. The funny thing is the way we found out about it was our friend Dave
Schroeder saw an advertisement about it in Goldmine magazine. We were happy though, and since Carl owns the masters he can pretty much license them anywhere that makes sense. We did ask him that he let us know next time. Prior to that Ra Pariah was a true underground demo, we did videos and shopped it around, almost got signed to Metal Blade and Roadrunner (long story), but never officially released it.

[hload]

Then to answer your question I think you licensed the album 100% legal then.

I really don't see the point of a label retaining the rights of bands if they're not going to do anything with it.

I know the bigger labels like Earache, Relapse, Century Media, buy the copyrights from the bands, but I feel that bands should ask for clauses that if they don't do anything with the album (like keep the album in print) for say "x" number of years that they can get their rights back.

I think that's fair.

I'm with you but back in the day it was not like that.
We all kow the stories of Sharpnel..

I have a contract from NNR around somewhere that was just crazy. But I am sure someone signed it. Stating they had the rights to everything you did musicly for like 20 years.. you could have been 10 bands down the road they still owned it.. Crazy...

sir, sorry but you know how shrapnel fanboyo i'm and thus i have to ask for more about this. ok, varney didn't like satanic image etc(according to what the guys from SA slayer told in their intie for the snakepit). also for fact he didn't like bald or fat guitarists(considering that they were at least semi godly in their instruments ). i don't agree but also it wasn't my money.

but from what i know( i did some inties for my fanzine and some other fanzines in the past from guys like moore, fredianelli, mitic, bellas, kuprij etc etc etc), varney always covered the studio costs. as i understand it back then the studios were from 50 to 100 bucks per hour(at least for a couple of examples i know). so perhaps this was an agreement with the musicians. varney covered all the costs and for exchange he took the final product to do what ever he wanted to do with it. or i'm i wrong?

[apollo.ra]

bootleg or not bootleg, I WOULD KILL FOR THAT APOLLO RA TEST PRESS