The state of The Market...

MassOfKthulu · Post by **MassOfKthulu** » Tue Mar 17, 2009 3:33 pm

[Split from the Greg/Eat Metal-thread.../Admin]

Greg is opening the pit with the snakes here,discussing about germans and swiss and austrians collecting records like it's stamps and not caring about the music.He's so fucking right.There's no fucking balance it's either teutons with too much money that buy records cos they dont know what else to do with the 6.000 euro they get per month (the DIE-HARD REAL COLLECTORS OF U$ $STEEL VIS A VIS WHICH AS POOR BASTARDS MIGHT AS WELL GIVE UP COLLECTING AND GO SLEEP IN A DUMPSTER COS WE LL NEVER PAY 400 EURO FOR THE MASTERPIECE THAT IS ZEN VENOM AND ANOTHER EPS LIKE ZEN VENOM -as some may put it) or people that only care about their patches and going to fests and drinking and applying for the banana circus.
the history or what today is called rare metal is the history of teenagers in the 80s that listened to maiden and priest and released something in a micro quantity hoping to be the next maiden and they gave up 3 months later just to see their eps or demos or lps sold today for $500 a piece-which is probably more than they paid in 85 for their full batch of 500 lps to be pressed.the mechanisms used to acquire these lps and mass sell to COLLECTORS have NOTHING to do with the music.nothing.ye we (i) collect like crazy.and the cash goes to sellers.not the person that wrote the music.it's sick.we're all sick.

GJ · Post by GJ » Tue Mar 17, 2009 4:13 pm

Well, if I sold a copy of my (imaginary) band in 1984 for 4$, should I expect a precentage when sold again in 1992 for 1$ and then again in 2001 for 25$ as well as today for 300$?

Does the fact that I easily can go on out on the internet to see stuff being bought and sold for prices I can't afford make the deals immoral?

Should the fact that I have learned about some 4000 (again imaginary) privately issued records from the eighties on the internet give me the right to go out and buy them all at a price I can afford?

MassOfKthulu · Post by **MassOfKthulu** » Tue Mar 17, 2009 4:32 pm

it really despairs me that it takes an economist,not a metaller,to answer your question.this proves that the whole issue is fundamentally wrong.

q1:you get percentages when you are singed to a major label,i dont think percentages have anything to do with private issues.the usual answer of bands when asked how they feel their lp/ep/demo has been bootlegged/is being sold for a ridiculous amount :'what can we do,its not right bla bla'
they never saw any profit of course.

2:well in macroscopic terms selling art is probably immoral in general.Being specific,the artist never makes any cash out of these,only the dealer does (whether he preyed the copies off the artist or not) and thus,selling is immoral only to the extent that the buyer himself is ethically interested in who is getting his money.it;s no more than means to an end (to get a tangible copy of a pressed ball of vinyl which represents intangible music we all feel crazy about).IF it is fine for you then it is fine.the infrastructure of how rare 80s lps get sold bought and traded allows for little ethos-same as everything else seen in purely monetary terms.

3:IDEALLY it should.yet it does not.the eternal law of demand and offer regulates sales.if only ten bums were interested in Militia,then Militia would cost as much as beef jerky.If wealthy europeans are interested in Militia,it costs what it costs.the exact same law could be applied to a yaucht or a VanGogh painting.
Which allows me to cue to my point:music isn't a yaught.the mediums (media) through which we affiliate ourselves with music (from tshirts to vinyls) REPRESENT something which is much better sought out when you go to see the specific band play live for what a fest costs instead of being an ebay zombie.
I am an ebay zombie myself.but i ll also bust my ass to go to a fest.I feel fanatical about a shitload of cult 80s and 90s bands the world overand i ll go see them.this is a reflection of 'metallic ethos' on the music i love.
Immorality (the way you put it) neither anticipates not reciprocates any form of 'ethos'.and a blatant example of this (bordering on iconoclasm) is buying and selling 80s vinyl just for the heck of it.

Glockose · Post by **Glockose** » Tue Mar 17, 2009 5:38 pm

Well put..

I am a RECORD DEALER. I am not a collector
I am in this for the extra cash.

I listen to a lot of music, Everything I sell, Plus some.
I have no problem finding bands and purchasing records from them for whatever price they want, For the reason to resell them for 10X that in some cases.

But let it be known I am first a dealer and every record I have is for sale.

The reason I do this is simple. In the early 90's I collected and was tired of getting ripped off by DEALERS. So I desided to be a dealer myself, The most honest upfront dealer I could be. And I think that is what I have done.

Sorry if someone out there doesn't like that fact but it is a FACT.
And I have no problem with it.

Satan is Our Pal · Post by **Satan is Our Pal** » Tue Mar 17, 2009 6:03 pm

glockose wrote: I have no problem finding bands and purchasing records from them for whatever price they want, For the reason to resell them for 10X that in some cases.
.

Honesty goes out of the window with a quote like this.

Glockose · Post by **Glockose** » Tue Mar 17, 2009 6:05 pm

Satan is Our Pal wrote:
glockose wrote: I have no problem finding bands and purchasing records from them for whatever price they want, For the reason to resell them for 10X that in some cases.
.
Honesty goes out of the window with a quote like this.

Why?

There are plenty of folks on this site that have done this.
Just very few that will say it out loud.

I have No Problem with it.
It's life and it happens everyday.

Satan is Our Pal · Post by **Satan is Our Pal** » Tue Mar 17, 2009 6:13 pm

glockose wrote:
Satan is Our Pal wrote:
glockose wrote: I have no problem finding bands and purchasing records from them for whatever price they want, For the reason to resell them for 10X that in some cases.
.
Honesty goes out of the window with a quote like this.
Why?

There are plenty of folks on this site that have done this.
Just very few that will say it out loud.

I have No Problem with it.
It's life and it happens everyday.

Why not explain to the bands just how collectable their vinyl is, sell it for them on a percentage basis. Win, win all round. As you've stated many times on this very forum your not in it for the money, it's all about the hunt for new items.

Most people on these forums are minor league players.

MassOfKthulu · Post by **MassOfKthulu** » Tue Mar 17, 2009 6:15 pm

John here is the ideal scenario of 'dont shoot the pianist'
hes just the piano player
if junkies werent dying for their fix there wouldnt be coke plantations all over colombia
if wealthy europeans werent dying to spend ridiculous amounts of cash on a piece of plastic there ld be no ridiculous prices
you cant blame the coke dealer and u cant blame the record dealer they're only responding to demand
once u join the dance all u can do is shake your ass to the beat
that simple

Glockose · Post by **Glockose** » Tue Mar 17, 2009 6:19 pm

MassOfKthulu wrote:John here is the ideal scenario of 'dont shoot the pianist'
hes just the piano player
if junkies werent dying for their fix there wouldnt be coke plantations all over colombia
if wealthy europeans werent dying to spend ridiculous amounts of cash on a piece of plastic there ld be no ridiculous prices
you cant blame the coke dealer and u cant blame the record dealer they're only responding to demand
once u join the dance all u can do is shake your ass to the beat
that simple

Very Nicely Said..

tomas · Post by **tomas** » Tue Mar 17, 2009 6:21 pm

Hahahaha, 'you can't blame the coke dealer.'
Sorry but that's a load of crap

nightsblood · Post by **nightsblood** » Tue Mar 17, 2009 6:22 pm

You also can't blame the buyer. If someone wants to spend $3,000 on Militia, they have the right to do so. Those who cannot afford the going price for the item may get pissed off, but is that because they really think the buyer is somehow ruining the Underground or isn't a 'true' metal fan, or are they just envious that they cannot get the item themself?

I see albums sell every week that I'd like to buy but can't afford the going price of. But I don't take it out on the buyer- they can spend their money how they please.

Glockose · Post by **Glockose** » Tue Mar 17, 2009 6:23 pm

Satan is Our Pal wrote:
glockose wrote:
Satan is Our Pal wrote:
Honesty goes out of the window with a quote like this.
Why?

There are plenty of folks on this site that have done this.
Just very few that will say it out loud.

I have No Problem with it.
It's life and it happens everyday.
Why not explain to the bands just how collectable their vinyl is, sell it for them on a percentage basis. Win, win all round. As you've stated many times on this very forum your not in it for the money, it's all about the hunt for new items.

Most people on these forums are minor league players.

I have done this on occasion. But it doesn't always work well.

Easier to purchase everything at a one time price (You will find most bands would rather have 300-400 today then 100 a month for the next 10 months)

Glockose · Post by **Glockose** » Tue Mar 17, 2009 6:28 pm

tomas wrote:Hahahaha, 'you can't blame the coke dealer.'
Sorry but that's a load of crap

Why?

If I am auctioning an LP and start the price at $8. it has nothing to do with me if the sale price is 800.

If someone comes to me and wants to purchase a LP and says "I will pay you 800" and I say YES again Nothing to do with me.

In my LIST days I think for the most part my prices were BELOW market. (since MOST of my sales were to other dealers)
And I would always cut people deals if for 1 record or 100, or for first times the same as old folks.

When I set a price it is only because there is no other gauge to go by and it is only a guess

doomedplanet · Post by **doomedplanet** » Tue Mar 17, 2009 6:29 pm

Hey Greg: If you think any or part of my post was an attack on you, read it again and see it is not so. All I was saying is the truth and if you care to misinterpret that, that is your right, I was just laying it on the line because someone asked a question. What surprises me at how you think that this discussion was an attack on you.

To anyone like 'Satan is Our Pal' (who I can tell on this site is enthusiastic about metal ) that would say "Honesty goes out of the window with a quote like this.", I'm not sure exactly what you are trying to infer but in the case of Mr. Haupt (Glockose) if you are saying he is not honest you honestly do not know what you are talking about.

I can tell you have have bought/sold/traded records with John for about 15 years now. I can tell you that he has always been fair and easy to deal with. I have paid good money for good records from John. I have gotten good free records from John. Name a dealer that has knowingly given you a free $100 record? More than once. He has replaced defective records no questions asked. Trading with him was always mostly painless and I always felt happy in the end. He had mailed me a crate of records before just to listen to and decide what I wanted to buy and return what I don't want, no problem(s). The last deal we did, he sent me a record in trade that was definitely worth more than what I traded him because he wanted me to feel good about a previous deal that he made more money than expected.

The one thing he has NEVER been is anything but honest and with a 100% money back guaranteed no questions asked policy. I really cannot think of another record seller that has met ALL the above criteria, Can you?

MassOfKthulu · Post by **MassOfKthulu** » Tue Mar 17, 2009 6:32 pm

tomas: is it now

nightsblood:i am being very factual about my line of argument,'emotion' -the way you put it- has nothing to do with it
I am NOT envious of someone who buys militia for $3000 dollars-simply feeling sorry for them-cos 3000 dollars gets you 3 militia copies on ebay (unless jim is selling them haha) and they just wasted 2000 dollars,cos the 'going price' simply isnt that.
i am not talking metal here,the whole music thing is totally unrelated,im talking $$$ and how cash equals a collection equals snobbism equals DIE HARD COLLECTORS equals 'elite collectors' equals fucking bollocks to the tower of ten.