A broader discussion of what constitutes HM

Helm · Post by **Helm** » Mon Sep 01, 2008 8:23 am

[Split from the M-A thread/Admin]

Not really, more the broader discussion of what constitutes HM in the first place

dictionary.com wrote:aes·thet·ics
1. the branch of philosophy dealing with such notions as the beautiful, the ugly, the sublime, the comic, etc., as applicable to the fine arts, with a view to establishing the meaning and validity of critical judgments concerning works of art, and the principles underlying or justifying such judgments.

Avenger · Post by **Avenger** » Mon Sep 01, 2008 9:05 am

Helm wrote:Not really, more the broader discussion of what constitutes HM in the first place
dictionary.com wrote:aes·thet·ics
1. the branch of philosophy dealing with such notions as the beautiful, the ugly, the sublime, the comic, etc., as applicable to the fine arts, with a view to establishing the meaning and validity of critical judgments concerning works of art, and the principles underlying or justifying such judgments.

I think that this is over-analyzing dude.

To me if a band sounds good, then I recommend/listen to them.

GJ · Post by GJ » Mon Sep 01, 2008 9:12 am

Helm wrote:the broader discussion of what constitutes HM in the first place

Meaning: what we want it to be?

This is quite interesting, it sort of makes me wonder what the musicologists will make out of this genre in, say, two-hundred years from now. Will there simply be "Rock music", or will the numerous subgenres be "carved in stone" as to remain static in terms of instrumentation, sound, musical and lyrical themes and so on...

Another question is if the general public (or even subcultures within it) will keep listening to what us then long-since-dead would accept as being music within the boundaries that defines the genre to us (whether it be Rock, Metal or Heavy Metal). Will the music change in a way that makes it too different as for us to see it as Heavy Metal (this happens all the time I guess). Or will they become historical interesting genres known only by a small group of musicologists.

Who will be the judges?

Heavy Metal Will Never Die?

Helm · Post by **Helm** » Mon Sep 01, 2008 9:22 am

I can understand that but then again you're not trying to run a resource that caters based on its inclusivity of all sorts of HM into a master list (which is the issue this thread is dealing with). For such an endeavor, one needs a working definition of what HM is and for my money, it cannot rest solely on the examination of sound.

Simple example: based solely on sound, HM and Metalcore are made from the same identifiers: riffs, heavy guitar distortion, often extreme vocals, punishing battery. Yet HM is accepted in the archives, but metalcore supposedly not (though there are hundreds of metalcore bands that have slipped through). Why isn't it accepted generally? And why have some slipped through? It's not accepted because HM fans (or to be more exact, M-A moderators) currently believe metalcore is bad and if something is branded as overtly metalcore, it's not accepted in the archives. It doesn't have to do with what it is, it has to do with what people call it. And the bands that slip through? Some moderator listened to that metalcore band and decided on that day, in his given mood, that the band was sufficiently "metal sounding". Meaning: enough riffs and double-bass.

Contra-example: NWOBHM stalwarts Praying Mantis are not included in the archives for not being "metal sounding" enough. Meaning: not enough distortion and double-bass for the moderators of Metal Archives.

Clearly though for anyone with an active interest in the band, Praying Mantis should be in any serious list of HM. Why? Because they ARE HM, regardless of whether they seem to sound it for 00's trained metal ears. How can we tell?

Let the skies darken
So I can see the light
Let the clouds open
To drown my scent of fright
The sounds now all around me
Echo madly in my mind
My life may soon be over
In this game against mankind

Now the moderators at M-A don't have time to look up lyrics, look at covers, read interviews with a band and listen intentfully to a full record to make the call, but ... that's what it should take before someone decrees something to be HM or not. Not just to say if it is 'metal sounding', but if it is HEAVY METAL. As it is M-A is a list of 'metal sounding' bands, with a heavy bias against most modern 'metal sounding' bands, but that doesn't help much. I say however that they shouldn't be less inclusive, I say they should be MORE inclusive, put everything that is variably connected to HM in there and let the listener-researcher decide if it's HM for them. Just as long as the info in there is factual.

GJ · Post by GJ » Mon Sep 01, 2008 9:44 am

Sorry for going off topic. I was merely browsing this thread and your words got me in a philosofical mood.

I have little knowledge about M-A and the criteria they use for accepting entries. It seem to me that (on basis of what I've read in this particular thread) they have set their minds on being exclusive but not quite managing in keeping up with certain standards set by certain users/contributors. Hard task! Guess I'm too old to even understand what "metalcore" stands for (I can only imagine - lucky me). Still, I remember my days of youth reading an interview with some guy in Biscaya not wanting his band being labeled as Hard Rock as the genre was contaminated with bands like WASP... (this is my memory of it - I haven't actually read the article since 1985 or so). I'm quite certain that the Praying Mantis (Clive Burr´s Escape/Stratus) guys would have (then, that is) nodded their heads in complete consent...

Helm · Post by **Helm** » Mon Sep 01, 2008 9:58 am

Metalcore is a type of music borrowing primarily from the hardcore of Black Flag and mixing it with the thrash metal of Slayer. The current metalcore takes a step further and post-modernly infuses iron maiden twin guitar leads and melodies and sing-alongable pop refrains to create a very popular style of music with suburban disaffected youth, just like the ones we were when we first started listening to HM, remember? The big difference from it and modern metal like the stuff Century Media puts out is no longer a sound one, it is an aesthetic one. Metalcore adopts the angsty-whiney tone of its punk predecessors without any of the nonconformity and desire of sociopolitical change of it. It adopts the aggression and atavism of HM without any of the idealistic or iconoclastic quality of it, there is no transcendence and no overstepping of boundaries. It is essentially then, all bark and no bite, it is neutered if ham-fisted. However since it sells, it attracts a lot of musician talent. Remember glam metal? Remember how great some of these guitarists were at the time because they could pay the bills with metal? Same with metalcore. Guitar wiz kids abound.

It is a type of music very popular in America where transient music trends roll over every 5 years and the new replaces the old. European metalheads with a more 'MY HEAVY METAL IS FOREVER' naive-romantic sort of sentiment resist the change and do not see the point of abandoning their old music for new ones (a sign of less consumer culture in Europe perhaps?). The music press is trying to saddle the middle ground and appeal to both, ultimately appealing to neither demographic because they can smell the bullshit.

GJ · Post by GJ » Mon Sep 01, 2008 10:36 am

Helm wrote:Metalcore is a type of music borrowing primarily from the hardcore of Black Flag and mixing it with the thrash metal of Slayer. The current metalcore takes a step further and post-modernly infuses iron maiden twin guitar leads and melodies and sing-alongable pop refrains to create a very popular style of music with suburban disaffected youth, just like the ones we were when we first started listening to HM, remember? The big difference from it and modern metal like the stuff Century Media puts out is no longer a sound one, it is an aesthetic one. Metalcore adopts the angsty-whiney tone of its punk predecessors without any of the nonconformity and desire of sociopolitical change of it. It adopts the aggression and atavism of HM without any of the idealistic or iconoclastic quality of it, there is no transcendence and no overstepping of boundaries. It is essentially then, all bark and no bite, it is neutered if ham-fisted. However since it sells, it attracts a lot of musician talent. Remember glam metal? Remember how great some of these guitarists were at the time because they could pay the bills with metal? Same with metalcore. Guitar wiz kids abound.

It is a type of music very popular in America where transient music trends roll over every 5 years and the new replaces the old. European metalheads with a more 'MY HEAVY METAL IS FOREVER' naive-romantic sort of sentiment resist the change and do not see the point of abandoning their old music for new ones (a sign of less consumer culture in Europe perhaps?). The music press is trying to saddle the middle ground and appeal to both, ultimately appealing to neither demographic because they can smell the bullshit.

My sincere thanks for the warning! It seem to be my prejudices were to be proven right (bearing in mind my trusting in the knowledge of yours - me being too much a coward to actually go into the trenches to see things for myself). I shall immediately lock me in my vault of vinyl treasures (in which heavy metal shall reign ever after - as before)!

Helm · Post by **Helm** » Mon Sep 01, 2008 10:43 am

Though I'd want to urge you to not take my word for it on anything etc etc on this occasion I really don't think you'd be missing out on anything if you never consumed a single metalcore product.

GJ · Post by GJ » Mon Sep 01, 2008 11:01 am

I have, actually, seen some documentary on some emo (whatever that is - my prejudice says it's loosely connected with that metalcore thing) band. Experiencing their music was a strange thing. How can emotion be tamed and put in formulas (should've ask some scriptwriter in hollywood...). It just can't. Should I worry? Should I start brainwashing my two daughters with some... eeeerrrrrrr... Praying Mantis for gods sake! Children of the Earth! before they get into some serious musical (and music means everything) trouble? Sorry again for going off-topic. I shall have lunch now and not bother you for a while.

Helm · Post by **Helm** » Mon Sep 01, 2008 11:16 am

Why on earth would this be bothering me?

Emo is a sorta different thing in its origination but it merges with metalcore nowadays, yeah. Originally it was a quite potent mixture of hardcore energy and more personal lyrical themes and delivery. The name is stupid of course, all music is emotional to degrees (I also don't understand 'progressive' for similar reasons) but you could do worse than check out the originators of the form like Husker Du, and then Embrace, Rites of Spring and so on. Do give a listen to Rudimentary Peni while you're in that neighborhood although they're at best tangentially linked to 'emo' as it is.

As far as a documentary of some emo band, well I am sure that if a band starts out today and has listened to 10 similar bands and is inspired by them without any historical depth then they will not be any less 'for real' than the historically-educated bands in average. It's just that their music -barring someone being a real genius in the band- will sound samey for the listeners with a historical appreciation of the music. This isn't the end of the world. For the people in the band it is sometimes more important to be able to play and make something of their young life, than it is to make seriously enduring and poignant music.

I don't think it would be best if you brainwash your daughter with NWOBHM as funny as that sounds (sometimes I'd like to have a baby boy just so I can bring it up indoctorinated to believe he's a long lost prince of Egypt, heir of Tutanhamon and then suddenly at age 6 just STOP MENTIONING THIS COMPLETELY and see if later in life he develops schozophrenia or if he thinks it was all a dream. HELM = BAD PARENT). What I'd do in your place is let them listen to whatever they want to listen, and when they're 16 or so just have short 'Heavy Metal Appreciation Hour' sessions where you'd show them the human element behind the music. The personas, how they struggled to make it, which ones made it, what span this sort of music has travelled. Bits of inspiring lyrics. Something to tie the OMG AWESOME RIFFS with something more human, more universal.

GJ · Post by GJ » Mon Sep 01, 2008 12:03 pm

Helm wrote:I don't think it would be best if you brainwash your daughter with NWOBHM as funny as that sounds (sometimes I'd like to have a baby boy just so I can bring it up indoctorinated to believe he's a long lost prince of Egypt, heir of Tutanhamon and then suddenly at age 6 just STOP MENTIONING THIS COMPLETELY and see if later in life he develops schozophrenia or if he thinks it was all a dream. HELM = BAD PARENT).

Helm wrote:What I'd do in your place is let them listen to whatever they want to listen, and when they're 16 or so just have short 'Heavy Metal Appreciation Hour' sessions where you'd show them the human element behind the music. The personas, how they struggled to make it, which ones made it, what span this sort of music has travelled. Bits of inspiring lyrics. Something to tie the OMG AWESOME RIFFS with something more human, more universal.

HELM = GOOD PARENT!

I guess you´re right. I won't interfere with my kids prefering my wife's ABBA cd's for their spontaneous turn-the-living room-into-a-disco makeovers. After all whenever I play some catchy old hard-and-heavy tune they tend to come in starting jumping about and dancing all over. Resulting in me starting worrying about the needle taking my kids advice and copying their procedure (the jumping abouts...) causing serious damage to the plastic - ever so dance-inducing - object. (we happen to live in an old timber house with floors of a rather swaying nature)

Helm · Post by **Helm** » Mon Sep 01, 2008 12:19 pm

ABBA are a total gateway drug into happy power metal, don't worry about it!

GJ · Post by GJ » Mon Sep 01, 2008 12:31 pm

Helm wrote:ABBA are a total gateway drug into happy power metal, don't worry about it!

Is that a good thing? Hm - maybe happy power metal can be the gateway into something more useful? Not that there's anything wrong about being happy. See - Children of the Damned makes me happy, empowered, even if it's rather unsettling and sad while Dr Stein leaves me cold or even slightly nauseous.

Helm · Post by **Helm** » Mon Sep 01, 2008 2:10 pm

Yes there is a time in a young person's life where they cannot understand the intricacies of existence and where simple-happy is very much desired as a power-up effect, even if it's going to be discarded later in the future for more nuanced approaches to emotive art.

Cochino · Post by **Cochino** » Mon Sep 01, 2008 5:19 pm

I think the important thing is not that much what music they listen to, but WHY do they listen to that music. I mean, I usually like a lot of non-metal listeners better than metalheads, because what¡s important to me is people who appreciate music by itself, and not because they wanna adopt certain image, belong to certain group or pick up certain chick. I would be dissapointed if a child of mine listens to metal just 'cause I do. I would want him/her to listen to whatever they like and truly enjoy.