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In my not so humble opinion the Cloven Hoof debut pisses all over Ample Destruction. You'll have to look hard to find a US metal record that comes close to the quality of Cloven Hoof.

Also I think it's wrong to say that the sound of their debut was outdated by comparing it with US metal albums. European bands never had that US metal sound and american bands never had the european sound so it's not a relevant comparison.

there is an earlier demo, from 1981 when they were called Nightstalker, I think it has Return of the Passover and Nightstalker.

And there's a 1989 BBC Session as well, with Astral Rider, Mad Mad World, Fox on the Run (?). will try to find and upload. No idea where this stuff is.

Oliver/KIT wrote:

Avenger wrote:I think that 1984 is a little late for the NWOBHM movement the sound may be dead on, but I think that only the first few demo's count as NWOBHM.

Their S/T is decent, but it's sound for 1984 was already outdated. Not that it's a bad thing but compare "Cloven Hoof" to "Ample Destruction" or "Metal Church" and you'll see what I mean.

Great music is never outdated...

In regards to the way the the Metal scene was going at the time for a band to release an album that sounds like something that was released in 1981, yes, it was outdated.

Like I said though, that's not a bad thing, but hardly NWOBHM in my opinion.

mordred wrote:In my not so humble opinion the Cloven Hoof debut pisses all over Ample Destruction. You'll have to look hard to find a US metal record that comes close to the quality of Cloven Hoof.

Also I think it's wrong to say that the sound of their debut was outdated by comparing it with US metal albums. European bands never had that US metal sound and american bands never had the european sound so it's not a relevant comparison.

It is relevant because it really didn't matter where on the globe you were the Metal scene still progressed and with that the sound changed and became more aggressive.

Maybe it's just me but from my experience it seems that after the NWOBHM movement the UK scene was in hiatus still stuck on that typical NWOBHM sound as a majority until the later part of the 80's.

boris wrote:there is an earlier demo, from 1981 when they were called Nightstalker, I think it has Return of the Passover and Nightstalker.

And there's a 1989 BBC Session as well, with Astral Rider, Mad Mad World, Fox on the Run (?). will try to find and upload. No idea where this stuff is.

Sweet, I'd love to hear that one.

mordred wrote:In my not so humble opinion the Cloven Hoof debut pisses all over Ample Destruction. You'll have to look hard to find a US metal record that comes close to the quality of Cloven Hoof.

Also I think it's wrong to say that the sound of their debut was outdated by comparing it with US metal albums. European bands never had that US metal sound and american bands never had the european sound so it's not a relevant comparison.

I'm humble enough to admit to agree with you here. I like Jag Panzer quite a lot, but somehow the voice of Harry Conklin never has appealed to me very much, he seem a bit lifeless to me. He's got a great voice but just isn't a great singer. David Potter is the quite opposite and thereby is fit to deliver magic!

What's a european sound? Restless and Wild? Piece of Mind? Screaming for Vengeance? Completely different to me. Cloven Hoof may have been dated but I would rather compare their (early) sound with US proto metal (Legend, Granmax, Beowulf and such...) than with any of the mentioned bands (Accept, Maiden or Priest).

Prefering CLOVEN HOOF's debut over Ample destruction is acceptable for me as it is something that comes down to each one's own taste and not some kind of universal truth everyone must accept, however i have to disagree with the fact that one may find Tyrant's voice a bit lifeless.

Harry always sung with so much passion either when he was in Jag Panzer or in Titan Force or in Satan's Host. I mean, if he sounds lifeless in an album such as Metal from hell then no singer has ever sung anything with life. I have heard many people saying they don't like the colour of his voice and honestly i have no problem with that, but not recognising the passion in his singing is something i cannot easily understand.

ION BRITTON wrote:I have heard many people saying they don't like the colour of his voice

This might just be what I meant - and it's not like I think he sucks. In fact the greatness of their material and his voice just leaves me wanting more out of it and some parts of his singing just don't do it for me (others are just perfect!). Strange - you mentioned Titan Force and I realize I haven't felt the same about his singing with them (much warmer feeling there) and I still like Jag Panzer a lot more than TF... I must go in therapy!

It's the material of TITAN FORCE that demands a ''warmer'' approach in the vocals, especially on the 2nd album. Very far from the berserk performance of Metal from hell, in TF Tyrant sounded more lyrical than ever. Imo he is great in any style he chooses to sing.

GJ wrote:

ION BRITTON wrote:I have heard many people saying they don't like the colour of his voice

This might just be what I meant - and it's not like I think he sucks. In fact the greatness of their material and his voice just leaves me wanting more out of it and some parts of his singing just don't do it for me (others are just perfect!). Strange - you mentioned Titan Force and I realize I haven't felt the same about his singing with them (much warmer feeling there) and I still like Jag Panzer a lot more than TF... I must go in therapy!

haha...nah, you're ok man, just a little different!
I think we discussed a similar topic in the past...

ION BRITTON wrote:Prefering CLOVEN HOOF's debut over Ample destruction is acceptable for me as it is something that comes down to each one's own taste and not some kind of universal truth everyone must accept,

It is definitely a matter of taste and that was partially the point I was trying to make. Cloven Hoof and Jag Panzer in my opinion belonged to entirely different scenes and largely different genres, so I don't think it's relevant to judge Cloven Hoof as outdated because they did not sound like Jag Panzer.

mordred wrote:so I don't think it's relevant to judge Cloven Hoof as outdated because they did not sound like Jag Panzer.

I agree. This kind of comparisons really don't help.

Perhaps not the greatest comparison...

The point I was trying to get accross is that the typical NWOBHM sound that Cloven Hoof put out on their S/T 1984 album was already outdated and "missed the boat" so to speak in terms of the NWOBHM scene.

In my not so humble opinion the Cloven Hoof debut pisses all over Ample Destruction. You'll have to look hard to find a US metal record that comes close to the quality of Cloven Hoof.

I respect your opinion when it comes to tastes... but saying that you have to look hard to find a US Metal record that come close to the quality of C.H. is really too much to take. I Like alot "a sultan's.." but hell...

big mouth wrote:

In my not so humble opinion the Cloven Hoof debut pisses all over Ample Destruction. You'll have to look hard to find a US metal record that comes close to the quality of Cloven Hoof.

I respect your opinion when it comes to tastes... but saying that you have to look hard to find a US Metal record that come close to the quality of C.H. is really too much to take. I Like alot "a sultan's.." but hell...

What's so strange about that? You have to look hard to find anything that comes close to Cloven Hoof.