Early Black Metal - what were the bands?

Rick · Post by **Rick** » Sun Mar 21, 2010 6:57 pm

Well, as I said, this was supposed to be a debate topic (and so it's been). The way I see it, the very definition is quite problematic. If I add Witchfynde I guess I'd have to add bands such as Black Widow, and even Black Sabbath themselves. Perhaps it would be best to drop names such Black Evil and stick to the brutal stuff. Anyway, I guess I'll just leave it at that and just let the topic go. Many people here did say useful things from my perspective. Food for thought. Thanks to those who gave a good input.

Nathaniel · Post by **Nathaniel** » Sun Mar 21, 2010 8:55 pm

Putting a labelon bands was of a higher interest when I was younger and in a way more radical, because I was maybe looking for a stronger affirmation of my personality. But years have passed by, and nowadays I don't care so much about these convenient little boxes called "this" and "that" metal. I care for what talks to my guts be it BLACK WIDOW or INQUISITION, if you want to stick with bands delivering a satanic message and non conformist music.

Dodens Grav · Post by **Dodens Grav** » Sun Mar 21, 2010 10:27 pm

"Black metal" was never at any point in time a purely musical movement to begin with. Black metal is and was always heavily invested in lyrical matters, which is why "un-black" metal is not black metal. It's not a musical genre so much as it is an ideology within the framework of a musical genre, though the boundaries are admittedly at times unclear. To dismiss everything that came out before Euronymous got a bunch of death metallers into his new 'vision', however, is ridiculous.

GJ · Post by GJ » Sun Mar 21, 2010 10:59 pm

Dodens Grav wrote:ideology

...my ass! It's not a musical genre so much as it is an gimmick within the framework of a musical genre...

Nathaniel · Post by **Nathaniel** » Sun Mar 21, 2010 11:26 pm

Yeah GJ, I follow you on this one.

Black metal has become a cradle for wannabe radical teens lately. And this is indeed the gimmick side of the music that appeals to the feeble minds who dare to think they are strong because they have a black metal t-shirt, and 1000 downloaded records of bands whose point is to sound even worse than their grandmothers farts. Where's the ideology in such an over-exposed movement these days?

I don't deny that a part of this black metal scene is composed of intelligent and real dedicated metalheads who know what metal is about, but most of it has just become a joke and a trend.

ION BRITTON · Post by **ION BRITTON** » Sun Mar 21, 2010 11:32 pm

GJ wrote:
Dodens Grav wrote:ideology
...my ass! It's not a musical genre so much as it is an gimmick within the framework of a musical genre...

Maybe it has become one nowadays, in the early 90s there were some bands that believed in what they were singing. I don't agree with the views of Vikernes, but I must admit that the guy did believe in something regardless of how confusing his views might have been mixing aryans with norse gods and aliens. And then there were the more 'sophisticated' satanists like Emperor or Ulver. If you happen to read an Ulver interview you'll be surprised at how detailed and valid some of their arguments are, I just can't regard all of them as 'gimmicks'...
Read the whole Lords of chaos book for more info..

Satan is Our Pal · Post by **Satan is Our Pal** » Sun Mar 21, 2010 11:43 pm

Black metal is shite, spotty 35 year old virgins that still live at home with mum and dad.

GJ · Post by GJ » Mon Mar 22, 2010 12:14 am

ION BRITTON wrote:
GJ wrote:
Dodens Grav wrote:ideology
...my ass! It's not a musical genre so much as it is an gimmick within the framework of a musical genre...
Maybe it has become one nowadays, in the early 90s there were some bands that believed in what they were singing. I don't agree with the views of Vikernes, but I must admit that the guy did believe in something regardless of how confusing his views might have been mixing aryans with norse gods and aliens. And then there were the more 'sophisticated' satanists like Emperor or Ulver. If you happen to read an Ulver interview you'll be surprised at how detailed and valid some of their arguments are, I just can't regard all of them as 'gimmicks'...
Read the whole Lords of chaos book for more info..

Haha! I know I'm completely ignorant when it comes to black metal (post early Running Wild that is

) So, my post was mostly a gut reaction to something that seems only quirky and silly to me. If they really want to be "evil" and stuff, why then all this stupid make-up and sissy weezing voices and guitars? Why music at all? Seems as stupid as all these criminal gangs depending on motorcycles. Could as well do their stuff disguised as cross-country skiers or philatelists. Gimmick!

Ernest Thesiger · Post by **Ernest Thesiger** » Mon Mar 22, 2010 1:30 am

Satan is Our Pal wrote:spotty 35 year old virgins that still live at home with mum and dad.

Every genre attracts those. Enough prejudice.

Dodens Grav · Post by **Dodens Grav** » Mon Mar 22, 2010 2:50 am

GJ wrote:
ION BRITTON wrote:
GJ wrote:
...my ass! It's not a musical genre so much as it is an gimmick within the framework of a musical genre...
Maybe it has become one nowadays, in the early 90s there were some bands that believed in what they were singing. I don't agree with the views of Vikernes, but I must admit that the guy did believe in something regardless of how confusing his views might have been mixing aryans with norse gods and aliens. And then there were the more 'sophisticated' satanists like Emperor or Ulver. If you happen to read an Ulver interview you'll be surprised at how detailed and valid some of their arguments are, I just can't regard all of them as 'gimmicks'...
Read the whole Lords of chaos book for more info..
Haha! I know I'm completely ignorant when it comes to black metal (post early Running Wild that is ) So, my post was mostly a gut reaction to something that seems only quirky and silly to me. If they really want to be "evil" and stuff, why then all this stupid make-up and sissy weezing voices and guitars? Why music at all? Seems as stupid as all these criminal gangs depending on motorcycles. Could as well do their stuff disguised as cross-country skiers or philatelists. Gimmick!

Why bother attacking something that you admit to being ignorant of?

metalmaster · Post by **metalmaster** » Mon Mar 22, 2010 4:29 am

daniel wrote:BM does exist, it's what came out of Norway. This debate is endless, but the 2nd wave at least is a unified musical movement, while what some want to call real bm isn't unified in any way but lyrical content, and it's not even consistent at that. Musically you'd have to leave out so many bands, and what you're left with would be the narrowest genre on the planet, so how does that make any sense??? 10 bands played real BM and the rest are 'something else'?

Just because someone hates 2nd wave BM doesn't mean they are right when they say it's nonsense.

What came out of Norway? that must be a joke! In fact those bands from Norway came at the very end of all the tide. There were Black bands long years before them. They invented nothing, they just ripped off Bathory in many aspects.

And I see no unification in this so called second wave (which in my opinion is like the 4th wave...), not just in partnertship termns but in "ideology" (black metal bands talking about trolls, and aryans and fascism and forest does not seem to be very coherent or congruent). It makes zero sense.

metalmaster · Post by **metalmaster** » Mon Mar 22, 2010 4:31 am

Rick wrote:Well, as I said, this was supposed to be a debate topic (and so it's been). The way I see it, the very definition is quite problematic. If I add Witchfynde I guess I'd have to add bands such as Black Widow, and even Black Sabbath themselves.

in my book Black Sabbath and Witchfynde are Metal, while Black Widow is not

GJ · Post by GJ » Mon Mar 22, 2010 10:45 am

Dodens Grav wrote:Why bother attacking something that you admit to being ignorant of?

For the fun of it?

Nah, guess I'm being stupid now. Still I have a hard time coming to terms with anyone's serious intentions in spreading bad stuff around (be it thoughts of supremacy of any kind, general evilness

including violence towards others). I just can't take that seriously and I fail to see what "good" it can do to any kind of music.

This being said - for sure some people may be both literate and sick in their heads. They may be serious about their ideologies. But they have built them on musical and visual traditions brought to western popular music by people like Black Sabbath, Blue Öyster Cult, Alice Cooper, Kiss, Venom, Mercyful Fate, Bathory, Death SS, Slayer, Possessed etc. and as such they are being mere victims of someone else's gimmicks.

daniel · Post by **daniel** » Mon Mar 22, 2010 12:57 pm

Metalmaster, I think if you re-read my posts you'll find I already noted your attitude before you expressed it. You hate Norwegian BM so much you can't reason clearly.

Cochino · Post by **Cochino** » Mon Mar 22, 2010 1:57 pm

White Metal is a genre as well then? Is Black Sabbath gonna be in both sides? While White Metal is a label that certainly doesn't refer to a genre but an ideology, a message in the lyrics Black Metal, even though it might have started that way, nowadays it refers to a certain sound, and I don't think anybody can deny it. Even those who want to include bands like Bulldözer into the genre should admit that when they read that a new band plays Black Metal they think of a specific musical style. Whether we like it or not we don't live in the 80's anymore so even if in the 80's Black Metal meant something different, nowadays it is a musical genre.