Master Of Puppets

otakon · Post by **otakon** » Sun Oct 14, 2007 8:40 am

I've owned this album for years and i never liked it for some reason... only Metallica album i listen regularly is Kill Em All

Noisenik · Post by **Noisenik** » Sun Oct 14, 2007 11:17 am

another reason for "overratedness": the last album on which Cliff played. Monster player.

Mr Nuke · Post by **Mr Nuke** » Sun Oct 14, 2007 11:36 am

Well, I guess METALLICA is like IRON MAIDEN. Some are fans to the core, and some recognize their influence and their qualities, but don't worship them.
DaN talked of Piece of mind, this album has some genius immortal tracks like "the Trooper", etc, but some boring ones like "Quest for fire" too (that's a problem of most MAIDEN albums except the first two ones, but that's off topic).

And well, I'm just bored when I listen to this album. So I don't have the need to own a copy. Nothing less, nothing more.

Brainbiter · Post by **Brainbiter** » Sun Oct 14, 2007 4:28 pm

Azaras wrote:With all due respect, Brainbiter, do you really think it's a quantifier of quality that the album "could have been released tomorrow"? Lots of albums that will be released tomorrow will be shit...

Well, let me explain that bit about tomorrow.
Master of Puppets is THAT good that it could have been released 10 years ago or 5 years ago or it could have been scheduled for release 2 weeks from now and so on... It is a timeless classic. It transcends beyond its genre and time. It is a piece of good Heavy Metal music, not just awesome thrash or a great NWOBHM-fueled album or classic Bay Area or a great release from 1986. Other great albums, like Show no Mercy or The Legacy, are great for what they are, 80's thrash metal, and they are rightly considered classics. But they do not transcend. You can easily say that this was the way thrash metal was played in 1983 or 1987. You cannot do this with Master of Puppets, however, because it went beyond Great Thrash Metal or Best Metallica Album.
Metallica managed to put out there a great Heavy Metal album. They went to the core of the thing you see, where no genre and year classification apply. That is what I mean by "could have been released tomorrow". It doesn't really matter for it is good Heavy Metal music.
Don't get me wrong. There is nothing wrong with the 70's or 80's or any other sound. Most great bands will record an excellent album or two in their time but very very few will manage to hit the vein of great Heavy Metal-Period, and that's OK. On a personal level, it doesn't really matter to me that MOP is a 10/10. I still love AJFA more than anything else Metallica did. But if I want to show somebody who's not into Heavy Metal what HM really IS and sounds like, I would give him/her albums like MOP.

other examples,
Cirith Ungol's Frost and Fire: Great album, love it, 9/10.
Cirith Ungol's King of the Dead: Great Heavy Metal album, 10/10.
Fates Warning's The Spectre Within: Great Album, 9/10.
Fates Warning's Awaken the Guardian: Great Heavy Metal Album, 10/10. This is Heavy Metal.
Sabbat's History of a Time to Come: Good speed/thrash, 8/10 for me. Very good.
Sabbat's Dreamweaver: Great Heavy Metal, 10/10.

Noisenik · Post by **Noisenik** » Sun Oct 14, 2007 8:08 pm

Helm wrote: From the horse's mouth. Ralph Hubert of Mekong Delta has explained that Mekong Delta came to exist because then drummer and original member Jorg Michael played him 'Fight Fire With Fire' and he said 'that's great, but I can do this better, and more complicated.' And he did. Recorded some scratch tracks, Jorg learned the parts, Peavey helped, there you go.

From the other side of the technothrash pond, Watchtower carried no Metallica influence of note directly. SA Slayer of course were well aware of the bay area, but Billy White (who is responsible for the original technothrash record) had much more of a classical metal influence mixed with jazz. Watchtower's first LP has been historically catalogued on being a great influence conceptually and technique-wise for Lars Ulrich, who is mainly responsible for the direction of Metallica during '...And Justice For All'. Metallica start bringing technothrash 'to the masses' as it were with this record, and countless latter-day TT bands carry the influence from them and not directly from Mekong Delta, Watchtower or Voivod.

Voivod have no metallica influence that I've heard of, nor can any be discerned during their spaceoid-TT period. Voivod shone as their own sun.

If you read the end part of my post, you will see that I wrote about change in paradigm. I didn't speak of direct influences, but of changing perspectives. Metallica was not direct influence for Watch Tower, VoiVod and Mekong Delta, but MOP set the standard for future things to come. VoiVod decided to do things differently and most radically of all. From MOP onward bands had to be attuned to new levels of musicianship, technicality, approach, production, ... Even most known bands followed that. Think Pleasures Of The Flesh, Under The Influence, Survive, No Place For Disgrace, even The Eyes Of Horror ... they were all touched by MOP to certain degree. Again: not direct influences but awareness to do things (at least slightly) different than before. Not to mention newcomers. From 1987 onward Thrash Metal was on new level.*

Note: I'm not singing praise. I'm naming facts.

Helm · Post by **Helm** » Mon Oct 15, 2007 4:04 am

I agree that MOP was the new 'entry level' for thrashy metal after it came out. Everybody listened to Metallica, and that's another reason I find corroseum elitism against Metallica a bit silly. If you asked all these obscure post 1985 metal bands people idolise here if they like Metallica, a lot of them I'm sure would worship their releases and say they've been hugely influenced by them.

Azaras · Post by **Azaras** » Mon Oct 15, 2007 6:19 am

If you asked Lemmy he'd say he worshipped Johnny Kid and the Pirates. That fact, when held against the fact that I idolize Motorhead, doesn't make my dislike of Johnny Kid "silly" in any way.

Not that I'm for elitism for the sake of elitism, Helm. It's just that this isn't a good reason to decry it, I think...?

Helm · Post by **Helm** » Mon Oct 15, 2007 6:32 am

Actually if you worship Motorhead that'd be a good reason to listen to Johnny Kid and the Pirates more closely (if Lemmy likes them and considers them influential to their sound). You don't have to like it, but you don't have to completely devalue it just to make a statement.

Which ties in with that I think it's highly improbable -music is subjectively experienced and all that but ok- to find MOP boring, uninspired, lacking good songs and some other things that have been said in this thread. I think because everybody knows Metallica, it's sorta a kneejerk reaction by the 'obscure oldschool metal' fans to devalue them completely just so they're not caught up in that crowd of mainstreamers.

If MOP was released to little aplomb in 1986 in 100 vinyls that were given to the band hand to hand, right now this forum would love them so hard it wouldn't even be funny.

ION BRITTON · Post by **ION BRITTON** » Mon Oct 15, 2007 9:23 am

Helm wrote:I think because everybody knows Metallica, it's sorta a kneejerk reaction by the 'obscure oldschool metal' fans to devalue them completely just so they're not caught up in that crowd of mainstreamers.

If MOP was released to little aplomb in 1986 in 100 vinyls that were given to the band hand to hand, right now this forum would love them so hard it wouldn't even be funny.

I will speak for myself on this one here. I think you have got it wrong. Finding Metallica average doesn't have to do with ''elitism of obscurism'' and it doesn't have to do with the fact that they are worshipped among so many mainstreamers. Every newcomer for instance likes Iron Maiden, i love them too and they're among my 3 favorite bands because i find their music GOOD and not because of something else. I don't give a shit whether everybody, mainstreamer or not, listens to them as well. Same thing for Judas Priest, Black Sabbath, Motorhead etc etc. The thing is as simple as that: I don't like Metallica that much, that doesn't mean they're bad or crap, i just don't believe they are as good as they are believed to be. No elitism and no snobism shit at all. The equation is very simple: I like something = I'll listen to it and i'll praise it. Otherwise, not.

About the 100 copies thing. We've discussed it before. The rarity of a record alone doesn't give it musical value. There are some ultrarare LPs and EPs that i adore and some that don't mean shit to me. Some happen to be great, some mediocre and some bad. According to each one's own taste of course. It has nothing to do with microquantity or obscurism or cult or whatever.

And as i've said before, to my musical reality Metallica will remain an average band, even if i'm the last person on earth who will say this. I respect what others might say but i will not accept it as the one and only truth. There is not such thing in art. Everything is subjective. So i think it's useless trying to conveince others about the top-5 best bands/thrash albums/singers/etc. Something is considered a ''classic'' only FOR ME and not because some stupid critic said so.

Korgüll · Post by **Korgüll** » Mon Oct 15, 2007 12:52 pm

I think we (Helm) are totally over anal-izing Metallica!

There are far more interesting bands to talk about!

I can have a discussion about Metallica with a 20 year-old work colleague, no need to waste our time discussing it here at The Corroseum...?

Abyss · Post by **Abyss** » Mon Oct 15, 2007 1:38 pm

Mr Nuke wrote:Well, I guess METALLICA is like IRON MAIDEN. Some are fans to the core, and some recognize their influence and their qualities, but don't worship them.
DaN talked of Piece of mind, this album has some genius immortal tracks like "the Trooper", etc, but some boring ones like "Quest for fire" too (that's a problem of most MAIDEN albums except the first two ones, but that's off topic).

And well, I'm just bored when I listen to this album. So I don't have the need to own a copy. Nothing less, nothing more.

Quest for Fire is one of my favorite Iron Maiden songs although there are many that hate it I think its a very epic track. I do agree with you though we've heard the big 4 of thrash and the British giants so much that it sees almost pointless to own them at times and I feel I am burnt out on the music for years to come, as you said I do recognize their influence and qualities but I feel lesser known bands have done it better and that to me is the essence of obscure metal, I am willing to admit since getting into more obscure bands I have sort of become disillusioned with the mainstream pioneers so to speak and that is because as everyone has said is because they are still talked about way too much by people who cannot get over them, these people usually seem to be metal amateurs and never get over that stage they stick with a certain set of bands and thats it.

The Sentinel · Post by **The Sentinel** » Mon Oct 15, 2007 1:49 pm

Obscurity has indeed nothing to do with the quality of the music. Like 75% of my all time faves are widely available. In my book MOP does not live up to the hype, the quality isn't strong enough. I also don't believe in the "right album at the right time" thing; was it time for something new then? As far as I now things were more then fine before MOP.

I bet that in that book "1001 albums you must heard before you die" also contains abortions like "Nevermind" and the likes, so that doesn't say anything actually.

Helm · Post by **Helm** » Mon Oct 15, 2007 1:50 pm

Ion, I am not talking about you because by now I'm pretty much convinced you have good taste and you don't let unrelated issues to get between you and enjoying the music you like. It shows that you don't say they're horrible, just average for you which is fine. There's been a few comments about worthlessness which I found very suprising and that's what I was talking about more than anything. I can understand middle-of-the-roadness on Metallica, I just don't understand an extreme and total devalue.

The Sentinel · Post by **The Sentinel** » Mon Oct 15, 2007 1:57 pm

Helm wrote:I just don't understand an extreme and total devalue.

I don't understand the exact opposite of that in terms of quality.

Helm · Post by **Helm** » Mon Oct 15, 2007 1:59 pm

That's fine, I'm not saying any other opinion than that MOP is a 10/10 album is crazy or anything.