MARQUIS DE SADE-Somewhere Up in the Mountains LP HRR

nightsblood · Post by **nightsblood** » Fri Aug 10, 2012 8:25 pm

I've heard all the Hades Paradise releases were unofficial.

Unlikely to have a big impact on the price of the original; most folks have known about the original for a long time, so there shouldn't be a huge rush of new fans, nor should a lot of people suddenly decide to strike it from their want list b/c of a $20 12" reissue.

And as Prof explained, there are lots of ways that people can mistakenly think they have the rights. Of course, they may KNOW they don't have the rights and release it anyway, then feign ignorance later on if they get called out.

HRR is not the only 'legit' label to release some titles without the right permissions. High Vaultage supposedly never had the rights to some of their releases back in the 90s. Old Metal admittedly did some illegit releases too. Was it SKR that almost got duped on reissuing 'Fit for Fight' a few years ago when someone in S AMerica claimed they had the rights?

Avenger · Post by **Avenger** » Sat Aug 11, 2012 11:40 am

That's understandable but doesn't a copyright holder have documentation to prove ownership?

Professor Black · Post by **Professor Black** » Sat Aug 11, 2012 4:03 pm

If they bothered to register the work, sure.

Ironhead · Post by **Ironhead** » Mon Aug 13, 2012 6:06 pm

I'd think that releasing these again properly and this time truly officially is something they own to the bands after the hideous bootlegs, rather than a way to cash in again with the same records. I don't have the earlier MDS vinyl so this one will be mandatory. I must be the only one who likes Black Angel more than Somewhere up in the Mountains?

nightsblood · Post by **nightsblood** » Tue Aug 14, 2012 3:32 pm

The label doesn't owe the band anything, unless the band started legal action over the boot and the label offers something in a settlement. As fans we tend to think in terms of acting properly towards bands, 'doing the right thing', etc. Reality check- labels are businesses and do what's best for them. HRR isn't re-releasing this out of the goodness of their heart, they're doing it b/c there's still some demand for the record and thus they can make some money. Sounds cold, but businesses don't succeed by doing what's 'right' in the eyes of the scensters.

Black Angel is OK, but I like SUitM more. I prefer several of the demo tracks to either.

Dirty Rocker · Post by **Dirty Rocker** » Tue Aug 14, 2012 3:57 pm

Will defenitely get this.

Ironhead · Post by **Ironhead** » Wed Aug 15, 2012 8:39 am

nightsblood wrote:Reality check- labels are businesses and do what's best for them. HRR isn't re-releasing this out of the goodness of their heart, they're doing it b/c there's still some demand for the record and thus they can make some money. Sounds cold, but businesses don't succeed by doing what's 'right' in the eyes of the scensters.

Well, obviously the label needs to make some money out of the business but I can't really believe that someone would be releasing odd NWOBHM demos to get rich. Not quite the best way just to make money?
Beside the business side of High Roller I'd dare to claim that there's also some love and interest towards that kind of music, not just a businessman with $ in his eyes. At least the small label owners I know from Finland aren't really cruising around with sports cars, they are releasing stuff with their labels because they like it and want to help delivering it to their listeners.
Call me blue-eyed.

Professor Black · Post by **Professor Black** » Wed Aug 15, 2012 3:38 pm

Tend to agree in this case.

nightsblood · Post by **nightsblood** » Wed Aug 15, 2012 8:45 pm

Sure the label owners can also be fans of what they release, I never said they couldn't be. But they have to consider how to make a profit from those releases or they'll be broke after a couple of projects. They can't go around continually releasing things just "to do right by the bands" or just "for the love of the music" unless they wanna go broke fast. Release what bands/albums you really like, fine, but make sure it won't sink your business at the same time.

And I'm not saying every small label has to make a fortune off every release. The profit margin may be thin, and some releases may unexpectedly tank (Metal Blade sold what, 411 copies of DARK HEART?), but you have to make money to keep making records.

No profit for label = no more records released.

It's a simple concept that so many metal fans don't seem to get. Maybe that partially explains why metal fans are, overall, not very well-off financially

HRR has been churning out a lot of releases in recent years. That means they've either found a way to make money from their releases, or they're being bankrolled by a sugar daddy with deep pockets who doesn't care how much money he loses. If someone can prove that HRR is run by a millionaire willing to put out all of these releases for no profit, I'll take back my comments. Whether the HRR management loves the music or not really doesn't matter. Fans tend to think it matters because we want everyone involved in Metal to be "true Metal brothers-in-arms who live and breathe the sacred Heaviness of yore", but that's far from reality.

So, which is more likely?
1-HRR is reissuing MdS b/c they think it'll make some money.
2-HRR is reissuing MdS thinking it will lose money but they're doing it anyway b/c they love the band so much & they feel so bad about not doing it "the right way" the first time that they're willing to take a loss in order to do right by the band and give the material a proper pressing.

Call me cynical but those choosing #2, I have a bridge to sell you.

Nightcrawler · Post by **Nightcrawler** » Wed Aug 15, 2012 9:45 pm

He's surely making money out of his releases, but in this case I believe it's more than just business. At least he seems to be "ashamed" not even mentioning the first edition in the HRR release section....And if I remember right he had that bootleg still for sale a few weeks ago, though it was released in 2005. So it doesn't seem to have been a very successful release...He doesn't have it in his shop, maybe it is sold out or he has stopped selling it with an official pressing announced, who knows?

Cochino · Post by **Cochino** » Thu Aug 16, 2012 1:37 am

The fact that they will never become rich doesn't mean labels don't want to milk every penny possible from their releases. I know a guy from a local distro/label who charged you a certain price for a tape cover and a CDR and a higher price to dub it on tape. This guy also printed extra covers of his releases that are just sitting in his house but he certainly thinks he can make a buck or two out of them. In a released he did along with me we were supposed to print 800 copies and he printed well over 1000 and he was planning to keep all the extra ones for himself. Of course, this is an example of an extra miserable, greedy dude but plenty of labels are run by people like this. They don't care if it's only a few bucks, they only care about the idea of making an extra profit.

nightsblood · Post by **nightsblood** » Thu Aug 16, 2012 11:45 am

Nightcrawler wrote:He's surely making money out of his releases, but in this case I believe it's more than just business. At least he seems to be "ashamed" not even mentioning the first edition in the HRR release section....

Since it wasn't an official release it's probably in his best legal interests NOT to list it as part of his catalog.

And if I remember right he had that bootleg still for sale a few weeks ago,

If that's true, it doesn't sound like he's very ashamed of it at all.

Cochino- good example and good point; metal is, and always has been, full of less-than-reputable managers, label owners, etc.

And yes, there are some nice guys who run above-board labels too.

Cochino · Post by **Cochino** » Thu Aug 16, 2012 1:37 pm

I was re-reading my post and I think it might be read as if I said all labels owners are greedy bastards like that one I was telling about, so I want to make it clear that I didn't mean that. Of course there's people making it out of honest interest, and maybe people doing it for the business but without that kind of shady actions like the ones I was telling about. My point was that even in the most underground subgenres you still have those greedy guys who just want to make an extra buck no matter what.

Nightcrawler · Post by **Nightcrawler** » Thu Aug 16, 2012 3:16 pm

nightsblood wrote:
And if I remember right he had that bootleg still for sale a few weeks ago,
If that's true, it doesn't sound like he's very ashamed of it at all.

I think it's natural that he wants his money back for something he invested money in, even more for something he thought was official (that's what I have heard). I don't think he is that rich to ignore all the money for the costs he spent to release it.
Maybe you are right, and he is just after the extra money with this rerelease, I don't know him personally. I'm just saying what impression I got of him...
I mean he is taking distance from this release by not listing it as a HRR release. I don't think to remember any fuss from any member of the band that forced him to act this way. He could have easily listed it as a legit HRR release, and no one would even notice that...

nightsblood · Post by **nightsblood** » Thu Aug 16, 2012 3:44 pm

'crawler- No, someone- and probably lots of someones- would have noticed and made a fuss if HRR listed a boot in his catalog. One thing that small metal labels MUST do in order to be successful is ensure they are in good standing with metal fans, and lots of metal fans take serious offense at bootlegs. Thus, even if the band didn't notice, customers would definitely notice, and some of them would decide not to buy HRR's products if they realized the label was openly advertising bootlegs.

As I said earlier, metal fans are practically obsessed with the idea of everyone in the scene being 'tr00', so if some label were to admit they supported bootlegs, that would damage the label's reputation with their consumer base. For example, there's an old thread hereabouts where Glockose asked King Fowley (of Old Metal Records) if some of his early releases were done without permission. I've known King for years and he is a very open, honest guy who tells it like it is- no pussyfooting around. Yet even King sort of hedged on answering that question at first.

Being associated with boots is bad for legit labels.

And I should clarify that I'm not trying to bash whoever runs HRR; I don't know the management at all. If I had to guess I'd say the owner is indeed a fan of most/all the stuff HRR releases. But that doesn't change the fact that HRR is a business and has to be run like one in order to be successful. Given the volume of their output in recent years, they must be doing something right from a business perspective