Insane Ebay Auctions - Vinyl, Tapes & Merch (2012)

[apollo.ra]

Oh OK, then i'll buy it

[Stormspell]

...if the copyright holder makes no effort to ever release something or will only do so under the terms that they make a large profit, they shouldn't be crying home when a bootleg of the material pops up. I will purchase said bootleg without feeling guilty about it. It happens all of the time; I’m not the only one that does it and the only one to blame are those that sit on the rights without ever doing something with them.

You know, this is exactly the lame excuse bootleggers like Time Warp and Azintex use to spawn their crap imitations and flood the market. I'm sure they will be thrilled to know they have such an avid supporter in your name. Way to go Avenger, way to go... why are you moderator here is a mystery I'll never comprehend...

I’m really sick of people that bitch about things without ever offering an actual SOLUTION to the problem. It’s quite simple. Bootlegs are created to relieve the demand for an item that is otherwise not available. Solution: make it available. It's not rocket science and there is no band-aid.

Wow, dude... I don't know what drugs you are on, but they sure seem to work for you... Are you sure you are not a 13yo or something? I'd really feel awkward arguing with a kid, it is just not right.

[nightsblood]

Both Stormspell and Shadow Kingdom have both stated in the past that their releases either break even or make very little and that they do it for the love as a fan of the music.

Breaking even/making a small profit is very different from losing money.
I challenge you to find an album that SKR or Stormspell will release if they know, in advance, that they will definitely LOSE money on it. Small labels like theirs work on very tight margins; they cannot afford to release items that will lose money, no matter how much they might love that particular recording. If they choose to knowingly release products that will lose money, they'll be out of business in no time flat.

Again, you are missing my point here. I don't care how or why some people put out releases or if they make money or not. I don't give a shit about the business end of the "industry". Sure, I would like to see a copyright holder or record label make a few bucks if they do a good job but that should not be the first priority in putting out a release.

You're thinking purely in fan terms; just b/c you "don't give a shit about the business end" in no way invalidates the issues the people on the business side must deal with. You're ignoring the hundreds of hours and thousands of dollars that a label must invest in order to release a recording. If price is not their first priority, they will go broke and then they will release nothing at all.

Not every release is going to sell well, but the label cannot move forward if they honestly think the project is going to sink them financially. No one who is serious about keeping their business afloat would do that.

I also do not believe that I am entitled to anything or that as a fan of the material that I deserve a release of a recording. However, if the copyright holder makes no effort to ever release something or will only do so under the terms that they make a large profit, they shouldn't be crying home when a bootleg of the material pops up.

Why shouldn't they cry? If someone uses your property to make money for themselves without your consent or permission, would you be ok with it?

It has nothing to do with feeling that the copyright holder is obligated to release the material for me, right now, when I want it or because I feel victimized because there either isn’t an existing copy or one available. There is never a guarantee that a re-issue will ever be put out and it's unrealistic to think that every recording that I would like to have a legitimate hard copy of on a specific format will happen. That said, if a bootleg transpires and there is no previous legal copy on that format previously or readily available, I will purchase said bootleg without feeling guilty about it.

So once again, you're going to get what you want regardless of the legality of how you get it. It is all about satisfying your desire.

It happens all of the time; I’m not the only one that does it

Oh come on, we're not in high school trying to convince folks that it's ok to skip class and go smoke behind the gym. A lot of people beat their wives and buy kiddie porn; would you claim those things are ok too since "it happens all of the time"?

and the only one to blame are those that sit on the rights without ever doing something with them.

So blame the owner, not the thief? That's brilliant. You're right back to claiming that the copyright holders are wronging you ("they are the one to blame") and that they are getting their just deserts when someone breaks the law to release the bootleg in order to satisfy all you poor fans who are being deprived of the object you so desire.

How many times can I say it: copyright holders are not obligated to release material; it is their property and their choice. If they choose not to release it, that in no way whatsoever justifies another person taking that material to use for their own personal profit.

I’m really sick of people that bitch about things without ever offering an actual SOLUTION to the problem. It’s quite simple. Bootlegs are created to relieve the demand for an item that is otherwise not available. Solution: make it available. It's not rocket science and there is no band-aid.

You're assuming the copyright holder even perceives that there is a problem. We metal heads tend to forget that we are an ultra-small minority in this world. It takes years for most releases of a mere 1,000 copies to sell out. Just b/c 12 people at the Corroseum are dying for a reissue of some 30-year-old metal album, well, that doesn't matter to the copyright holder. What do you do with the other 988 copies? Oh, and don't forget that 2 of those 12 will refuse to buy the reissue b/c it doesn't come on vinyl, 3 others will be too broke to buy it, and 4 will decide to just d/l it from thrashmageddon. Thus, there is no problem to solve from the copyright holder's POV until someone starts using their property without their permission.

Releasing a bootleg is relatively cheap and easy compared to doing a legit reissue; folks doing a bootleg can throw something together fast and don't have to get anyone's permission, work with the band, or anything. People don't just release boots b/c there is demand; they also do it b/c the profit margin is relatively large. All you pay for is the pressing, and all the sales go right into your pocket.

And for the record, I've offered several alternatives to buying boots:
1- buy a used copy
2- wait for a legit reissue. True, it may never happen, but you never know. Five years ago, how many people thought MAX PLANCK would ever get a legit reissue? Or AERIAN RAGE? Or XINR? Or RANDY? Etc etc etc etc etc etc etc etc etc etc etc
3- stick to your dubbed/mp3 copy. Do you REALLY have to own a CD or vinyl copy of it? This is the 'collector mentality' that other folks sometimes complain about, where The Object becomes your first priority instead of the music.


[/u]

[Helstar]

You know, this is exactly the lame excuse bootleggers like Time Warp and Azintex use to spawn their crap imitations and flood the market. I'm sure they will be thrilled to know they have such an avid supporter in your name.

I guess he meant "bootlegs" as "cds never released officially before" (such as Sindrome, Mandator, Viking and E-X-E debuts etc.etc.), not the fake replicas/CDR.
I don't think he's interested in buying or supporting in any way timewarp or azintex crap (see the Darkness on Brainstom problem he had lately).

Anyway, if you ask me, it's the same ... 'fake replica' or not.

[Avenger]

...if the copyright holder makes no effort to ever release something or will only do so under the terms that they make a large profit, they shouldn't be crying home when a bootleg of the material pops up. I will purchase said bootleg without feeling guilty about it. It happens all of the time; I’m not the only one that does it and the only one to blame are those that sit on the rights without ever doing something with them.

You know, this is exactly the lame excuse bootleggers like Time Warp and Azintex use to spawn their crap imitations and flood the market. I'm sure they will be thrilled to know they have such an avid supporter in your name. Way to go Avenger, way to go... why are you moderator here is a mystery I'll never comprehend...

I’m really sick of people that bitch about things without ever offering an actual SOLUTION to the problem. It’s quite simple. Bootlegs are created to relieve the demand for an item that is otherwise not available. Solution: make it available. It's not rocket science and there is no band-aid.

Wow, dude... I don't know what drugs you are on, but they sure seem to work for you... Are you sure you are not a 13yo or something? I'd really feel awkward arguing with a kid, it is just not right.

I'm not talking about duplicate replicas of already exisiting material. I'm talking about albums that have never been released for example on CD format before.

[Avenger]

Both Stormspell and Shadow Kingdom have both stated in the past that their releases either break even or make very little and that they do it for the love as a fan of the music.

Breaking even/making a small profit is very different from losing money.
I challenge you to find an album that SKR or Stormspell will release if they know, in advance, that they will definitely LOSE money on it. Small labels like theirs work on very tight margins; they cannot afford to release items that will lose money, no matter how much they might love that particular recording. If they choose to knowingly release products that will lose money, they'll be out of business in no time flat.

I don’t know what your talking about here. I never said something should be released so that an individual or label loses money. I said that XYZ material shouldn’t be kept in the dark if the opportunity to make a LARGE profit isn’t available. SKR and Stormspell were examples of labels that I support because they look at the business from the right prospective.

Again, you are missing my point here. I don't care how or why some people put out releases or if they make money or not. I don't give a shit about the business end of the "industry". Sure, I would like to see a copyright holder or record label make a few bucks if they do a good job but that should not be the first priority in putting out a release.

You're thinking purely in fan terms; just b/c you "don't give a shit about the business end" in no way invalidates the issues the people on the business side must deal with. You're ignoring the hundreds of hours and thousands of dollars that a label must invest in order to release a recording. If price is not their first priority, they will go broke and then they will release nothing at all.

Same as above. You have misunderstood what I was saying. Holding back because you won't make several thousand dollars profit and releasing something to break even or make a few hundred to compensate for the time invested are two very different things.

I also do not believe that I am entitled to anything or that as a fan of the material that I deserve a release of a recording. However, if the copyright holder makes no effort to ever release something or will only do so under the terms that they make a large profit, they shouldn't be crying home when a bootleg of the material pops up.

Why shouldn't they cry? If someone uses your property to make money for themselves without your consent or permission, would you be ok with it?

You seem to have an issue with the financial end of this argument. I don’t know if it’s in relation to the US being in such a mess right now but not every country is suffering the same burden. That aside you are failing to realize that a lot of bootlegs aren’t replica copies that are made to trick potential buyers into thinking they are original for the sole purpose of turning a large profit. Some bootlegs are very simple, very moderately priced and are released for the sake of getting the material out there because copyright holders won’t. They are obviously bootlegs and the buyer knows this. The seller isn't expecting to buy a house with the profit and they only want to make their money back on the project.

It has nothing to do with feeling that the copyright holder is obligated to release the material for me, right now, when I want it or because I feel victimized because there either isn’t an existing copy or one available. There is never a guarantee that a re-issue will ever be put out and it's unrealistic to think that every recording that I would like to have a legitimate hard copy of on a specific format will happen. That said, if a bootleg transpires and there is no previous legal copy on that format previously or readily available, I will purchase said bootleg without feeling guilty about it.

So once again, you're going to get what you want regardless of the legality of how you get it. It is all about satisfying your desire.

Is this not what all people in existence live their lives for? To get what they desire?

and the only one to blame are those that sit on the rights without ever doing something with them.

So blame the owner, not the thief? That's brilliant. You're right back to claiming that the copyright holders are wronging you ("they are the one to blame") and that they are getting their just deserts when someone breaks the law to release the bootleg in order to satisfy all you poor fans who are being deprived of the object you so desire.

How many times can I say it: copyright holders are not obligated to release material; it is their property and their choice. If they choose not to release it, that in no way whatsoever justifies another person taking that material to use for their own personal profit.

You have to look at a SOLUTION to the OVERALL problem, not just a temporary bandaid for one side of it. Again, it’s not all about money. If a copyright holder isn’t going to put out the material then someone else will. The copyright holder had their chance. Boo hoo.

I’m really sick of people that bitch about things without ever offering an actual SOLUTION to the problem. It’s quite simple. Bootlegs are created to relieve the demand for an item that is otherwise not available. Solution: make it available. It's not rocket science and there is no band-aid.

You're assuming the copyright holder even perceives that there is a problem. We metal heads tend to forget that we are an ultra-small minority in this world. It takes years for most releases of a mere 1,000 copies to sell out. Just b/c 12 people at the Corroseum are dying for a reissue of some 30-year-old metal album, well, that doesn't matter to the copyright holder. What do you do with the other 988 copies? Oh, and don't forget that 2 of those 12 will refuse to buy the reissue b/c it doesn't come on vinyl, 3 others will be too broke to buy it, and 4 will decide to just d/l it from thrashmageddon. Thus, there is no problem to solve from the copyright holder's POV until someone starts using their property without their permission.

Releasing a bootleg is relatively cheap and easy compared to doing a legit reissue; folks doing a bootleg can throw something together fast and don't have to get anyone's permission, work with the band, or anything. People don't just release boots b/c there is demand; they also do it b/c the profit margin is relatively large. All you pay for is the pressing, and all the sales go right into your pocket.

And for the record, I've offered several alternatives to buying boots:
1- buy a used copy
2- wait for a legit reissue. True, it may never happen, but you never know. Five years ago, how many people thought MAX PLANCK would ever get a legit reissue? Or AERIAN RAGE? Or XINR? Or RANDY? Etc etc etc etc etc etc etc etc etc etc etc
3- stick to your dubbed/mp3 copy. Do you REALLY have to own a CD or vinyl copy of it? This is the 'collector mentality' that other folks sometimes complain about, where The Object becomes your first priority instead of the music.

Do you think every single person bidding on Metal records on eBay uses The Corroseum? This is just one little corner that represents a small minority of the entire fan/collector base. I realize that Metal collectors are quite few when compared to other music genres but the fan base is still a lot larger then the user base on The Corroseum. Perhaps 20 copies of a 1000 unit pressing are sold here. The rest are sold else where. Obviously not every release is profitable, an automatic sell-out and may take years to recoup the money invested but 1000 units is really not that many. You aren’t seeing the line between GREED and PRIDE. Greed is not putting forth an effort to release something because you have the expectations to make a large profit and that is not going to happen. Pride is putting something out with the expectations that you will either break even or eventually make a few bucks doing what you like to do.

You aren’t taking into consideration that pressing something costs money, even bootlegs. Not 100% of every dollar charged for a copy is pure profit and again this takes me back to what I said earlier about the difference between a duplicate replica for profit and a bootleg just to get the music out there on a tangible object. That aside, I can only talk from my own experiences but I have purchased bootlegs in the past because the material was non-existent on the format that I wanted and then when a legit re-issue was available I purchase a copy to replace the bootleg. I’m sure that I’m not the only one either.

Having covered that I really can’t take you seriously when you offer MP3’s as substitute to a bootleg. That’s offering one illegal act in place of another illegal act. I thought you were trying to represent the legal side of the argument?

[sagrotan]

http://www.ebay.com/itm/251053951203?ss ... 1423.l2649



I see this is not completely off the charts but still sick.. Osmose is not quite a private release or something

[humus]

That album is never cheap. I know, I've been looking for one for over 10 years...

[apollo.ra]

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?Vi ... 971wt_1185

SOLD

[apollo.ra]

COMMANDMENT - Engraved In Stone (black LP) $121.50
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?Vi ... 500wt_1182

TYTAN Rough Justice LP $61.00
http://www.ebay.com/itm/320911620798?ss ... 133wt_1165

[nightsblood]

COMMANDMENT - Engraved In Stone (black LP) $121.50
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?Vi ... 500wt_1182

TYTAN Rough Justice LP $61.00
http://www.ebay.com/itm/320911620798?ss ... 133wt_1165

TYTAN used to bring at least $50 regularly, though it's been cheaper in recent years as mid-lveel NWOBHM items lost momentum. Commandment gets over $100 on occasion

High for both, but not unheard of :-/

[Khnud]

Ever since the demise of Peter Steele, there's been a slight inflation in the value of Type O Negative related music.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/300725677343

[darquos]

And one !

http://www.ebay.com/itm/MEDIEVAL-STEEL- ... 0812794964

[Cyrcka]

And one !

http://www.ebay.com/itm/MEDIEVAL-STEEL- ... 0812794964

wow!!

[MEXDefenderOfSteel]

And one !

http://www.ebay.com/itm/MEDIEVAL-STEEL- ... 0812794964

wow!!

fucken desperate people that are not aware of preorders i guess,indeed insane