Insane Ebay Auctions - Vinyl, Tapes & Merch (2012)

Avenger · Post by **Avenger** » Mon Apr 23, 2012 5:49 am

MP3's are only illegal under certain circumstances in certain countries. For starters anyone that purchases a CD is allowed by law to rip the files from it for their personal use. They are also allowed to share portions of these MP3's under the "fair use" policy in the US. The part that becomes illegal is when people share and download entire albums. On the other hand here in Canada downloading any musical content in any quantity is not illegal under any circumstances.

Now that the facts are out of the way, my opinion on bootlegs is quite simple. If an album isn't made available in physical format then a bootleg is fair game. In this case it is the artist/label/copyright holders fault for not making the material available. However, it must be easily distinguishd from an original copy if one exists. This may still be against the law but not all laws make sense or are morally right. On the other hand, if for example Stormspell puts out an official release and then a year later a identical bootleg version comes out of russia on the same format, this is morally wrong on several accounts. Firstly. the bootleg is now taking away from those involved in making the material currently available to begin with and secondly trickery is being used in attempt to convince you it's a legitimate release.

nightsblood · Post by **nightsblood** » Mon Apr 23, 2012 1:08 pm

Avenger wrote: If an album isn't made available in physical format then a bootleg is fair game. In this case it is the artist/label/copyright holders fault for not making the material available.

This may still be against the law but not all laws make sense or are morally right.

2 quick replies:
1- the holder of a copyright is in no way obligated to keep the copyrighted material in press indefinitely. Metal fans are bad to forget just how small a community they are. Your typical Stormspell/Shadow Kingdom release of just 1,000 copies can take years to completely sell out. It would make no business sense at all to immediately do another pressing. Just because there are a few hundred people willing to buy a boot/illegally d/l some mp3s does not mean that it's financially feasible for a company to press an official reissue.

2- Plenty of laws are stupid or morally wrong- they're often written by stupid, morally bankrupt people- but disagreeing with a law does not justify breaking the law.

lunaboy · Post by **lunaboy** » Mon Apr 23, 2012 2:57 pm

STORMQUEEN 6 Days to Go!!! This gonna be Huge!

Dirty Rocker · Post by **Dirty Rocker** » Mon Apr 23, 2012 3:46 pm

lunaboy wrote:STORMQUEEN 6 Days to Go!!! This gonna be Huge!

I had a chance to buy this red label version when I was 14 years old but couldn't come up with the 300 dollars (if I remember right) he wanted for it. My biggest mistake was not to borrow money from my parents or something, cos this is some rare shit that won't turn up many times.

Guess I'll have to be happy with my black/silver stormqueen 7''.

nightsblood · Post by **nightsblood** » Mon Apr 23, 2012 5:41 pm

Patrik- are you referring to the copy that turned up in 2002-2003? That's the only other one I've ever seen advertised. However, there were some 'red flags' about that advertisement; I am not convinced the seller was legit, so you might have saved yourself some heartbreak by not trying to buy it.

The price for this will be large indeed; I'm glad this is not one I'm looking for!! Just my opinion, but I think the single is highly overrated in terms of musical quality; neither song does much for me. It's not terrible, but not one I'd want to own even if it were a cheap, easy-to-obtain single

Dirty Rocker · Post by **Dirty Rocker** » Mon Apr 23, 2012 6:18 pm

nightsblood wrote:Patrik- are you referring to the copy that turned up in 2002-2003? That's the only other one I've ever seen advertised. However, there were some 'red flags' about that advertisement; I am not convinced the seller was legit, so you might have saved yourself some heartbreak by not trying to buy it.

The price for this will be large indeed; I'm glad this is not one I'm looking for!! Just my opinion, but I think the single is highly overrated in terms of musical quality; neither song does much for me. It's not terrible, but not one I'd want to own even if it were a cheap, easy-to-obtain single

I'm not sure of exact year, have to go through my email. But i think i was 14 which means is was in 2004.
I bought a MARZ 7" with original PS from him and traded him a rare Swedish punk/metal single with TURBO (pre-Mercy). Then he emailed me about the red storm queen and told me he could get it from a record shop if I remember right. He ended up getting it in a trade with the shop and offered it to me. I don't think he advertised it in public though. I even got pictures of it from him so I think it was real.

doomedplanet · Post by **doomedplanet** » Mon Apr 23, 2012 6:28 pm

I won't argue the point, but there are a lot of laws that should be broken, just out of principle. Not that I'm saying boots are one of them, but the statutes in this country are filled with some much stupid shit, that killing yourself would also surely break one of them.

nightsblood wrote: 2- Plenty of laws are stupid or morally wrong- they're often written by stupid, morally bankrupt people- but disagreeing with a law does not justify breaking the law.

nightsblood · Post by **nightsblood** » Mon Apr 23, 2012 7:44 pm

Patrik- that sounds like a different copy. The one I'm referring to was offered for sale in either 2002 or 2003- definitely not 2004- and advertised through ebay. I think it brought $300-400 IF it was a legit listing. The reason I have my doubts is that the seller claimed to be a band member, but other collectors/dealers contacted the members back in the day and were told they had no copies. The seller also 'sold' a black lbl copy on ebay before the red lbl auction, but then started offering additional black lbl copies to some people, off-ebay, for prices that were considerably lower than some of the losing bids; they could have given several losers Second Chance Offers and gotten a lot more money that way. If the seller had enough copies to satisfy all the losers AND those of us contacted privately, well, where the heck did all those copies go to? The whole thing smelled rather fishy; either someone was trying to pull a fast one, or they had no business sense and sold a bunch of copies that have disappeared into the woodwork.

Rob- sure, people can choose to break the law if they want, but they have to accept punishment if caught. The old "you shouldn't punish me for breaking this law b/c I think it's a stupid law" defense will not hold up in court very well

chatzial · Post by **chatzial** » Mon Apr 23, 2012 8:07 pm

nightsblood wrote:Patrik- that sounds like a different copy. The one I'm referring to was offered for sale in either 2002 or 2003- definitely not 2004- and advertised through ebay. I think it brought $300-400 IF it was a legit listing. The reason I have my doubts is that the seller claimed to be a band member, but other collectors/dealers contacted the members back in the day and were told they had no copies. The seller also 'sold' a black lbl copy on ebay before the red lbl auction, but then started offering additional black lbl copies to some people, off-ebay, for prices that were considerably lower than some of the losing bids; they could have given several losers Second Chance Offers and gotten a lot more money that way. If the seller had enough copies to satisfy all the losers AND those of us contacted privately, well, where the heck did all those copies go to? The whole thing smelled rather fishy; either someone was trying to pull a fast one, or they had no business sense and sold a bunch of copies that have disappeared into the woodwork.

I remember these auctions. And yes, the seller stated that he was a Stormqueen member. But i remember that he put more than one black label copies up for auction.

nightsblood · Post by **nightsblood** » Mon Apr 23, 2012 8:30 pm

Chat- you may be correct and he did auction more than one black lbl copy. I know he was also 'selling' multiple copies off-ebay. Did you get one from him? I've never met anyone who actually got one of these copies, which is another reason I've always wondered how legit he was. I think the first black lbl auction ended near $300, so why in the world was he offering copies off-ebay for $100-150 right after the auction ended?

Avenger · Post by **Avenger** » Mon Apr 23, 2012 9:30 pm

nightsblood wrote:
Avenger wrote: If an album isn't made available in physical format then a bootleg is fair game. In this case it is the artist/label/copyright holders fault for not making the material available.

This may still be against the law but not all laws make sense or are morally right.
2 quick replies:
1- the holder of a copyright is in no way obligated to keep the copyrighted material in press indefinitely. Metal fans are bad to forget just how small a community they are. Your typical Stormspell/Shadow Kingdom release of just 1,000 copies can take years to completely sell out. It would make no business sense at all to immediately do another pressing. Just because there are a few hundred people willing to buy a boot/illegally d/l some mp3s does not mean that it's financially feasible for a company to press an official reissue.

2- Plenty of laws are stupid or morally wrong- they're often written by stupid, morally bankrupt people- but disagreeing with a law does not justify breaking the law.

As a fan, what's good for business is not my concern. If a copyright holder doesn't want to put out the material themselves and a bootleg pops up it's their own fault.

daniel · Post by **daniel** » Mon Apr 23, 2012 9:45 pm

About the law. How can anyone have such a hardcore stance and simply say what you are saying Alan? Especially in the US more than ever these days what the "law" says is acceptable is often little more than the few controlling the many in increasingly underhanded ways, and like Rob said some laws indeed SHOULD be broken, because too much becomes lost when people simply sit down and take shit and never question authority. Obviously this goes beyond the scope of legality regarding music. Bringing up something like oh well if this and that is allowed then there will be anarchy in the end; the logical fallacy of the slippery slope changes not that there are VERY pressing issues involved with the governing of people's lives and what freedoms are disappearing.

nightsblood · Post by **nightsblood** » Mon Apr 23, 2012 10:01 pm

Avenger- sorry but no, the copyright holder can do whatever they want to with the material, including not making it available, and that in no way invalidates their ownership claim. So you cannot claim it is their own fault. This is especially true given that many bootlegs are made of things that are still in print.
As a fan you have the right to legally purchase a band's recordings, you do not have the right to acquire recordings by whatever means you so desire.

Daniel- You read too much into my statement. I agree completely that a lot of laws are ridiculous and are metered out by a small oligarchy in most countries, including the US. My point is that, if you break a law, you can be held accountable for breaking that law, no matter that the law in question may be deemed stupid by most people.
This does not mean, however, that I think people should meekly sit around and take whatever crap is doled out as law by ignorant, greedy politicians. Far form it. But instead of 'going rebel' and breaking the law, people should act to CHANGE the laws. Peacefully protest in legal ways. Vote the ass-clowns out of office when they pass stupid laws. Write them BEFORE they pass the laws and make sure they know that, if they try to pass a stupid, immoral law that only serves the ruling class, you will actively work to get them out of office. Boycott businesses who lobby in support of ridiculous laws. Etc.
The law is mutable, and people should be more active in effecting changes they feel strongly about. But simply saying, "this law is stupid so I'm gonna break it" changes nothing, and it will not serve as a defense if you are charged with breaking the law in question.
Hope that clarifies.

daniel · Post by **daniel** » Mon Apr 23, 2012 10:09 pm

Yeah it does

Unfortunately it is an enormous struggle to affect any legal situation with any amount of haste, and those in position to mold borders into cages are at an unfair advantage, I even think, that though bringing about change is encouraged, in a way things may have gone so far already that "revolution" isn't such an extreme idea anymore, how can something so deeply corrupt be corrected through channels that are also invariably corrupt :/

chatzial · Post by **chatzial** » Mon Apr 23, 2012 10:13 pm

nightsblood wrote:Chat- you may be correct and he did auction more than one black lbl copy. I know he was also 'selling' multiple copies off-ebay. Did you get one from him? I've never met anyone who actually got one of these copies, which is another reason I've always wondered how legit he was. I think the first black lbl auction ended near $300, so why in the world was he offering copies off-ebay for $100-150 right after the auction ended?

No i was never offered a copy. I also don't remember who got the ones that sold through Ebay.