Helloween&Candlemass false messiahs of doom & power

DMR · Post by **DMR** » Sun Jun 24, 2007 12:08 am

FenderMedium wrote:No one band is responsible for entire genres that is why the whole helloween created power metal argument is ridiculous to begin with,

That's not necessarily true. After all, you've said in this thread that Helloween is the creator of "modern" power metal, which seems to be a different subgenre than US power metal.

FenderMedium wrote:as for those american bands I would say the are a mixture of heavy metal and thrash metal not speed metal, they took the choppy riffs and aggression from thrash metal but not necessarily always speed,they are the true definition of power metal and what the term was coined for because they actually had power.

See Metal Church,Sanctuary,Jag Panzer,Griffin,Exxplorer,Liege Lord,Phantom,Malice,Obsession,Culprit,Commander,Helstar,Hexx,Overlorde, Oliver Magnum,Lords of the Crimson Alliance,Night Crawler etc.

OK, I got it. Power metal is heavy metal with some thrashy riffs. But that leads to another question. Why is that so different from heavy metal that those bands need to be put into another subgenre? Isn't that splitting hairs? It just seems like it creates more confusion for no reason. Some of those bands (like Lords of the Crimson Alliance) don't even have any thrash elements, at least not to my ears.

By the way, where would you place bands like Savatage, Omen, Crimson Glory and Queensryche? I've seen those bands called power metal (by people who agree with you that Helloween is not "real" power metal).

Post by **DaN** » Sun Jun 24, 2007 1:13 am

My definition of Power Metal is much the same as FenderMediums, but the term is so confusing these days I'm almost considering to stop using it. If you look in old zines and mags from the early/mid 80's terms like Power/Speed/Death/Thrash was used pretty interchangeably on all sorts of bands slightly heavier than Saxon or Judas Priest. Heck, even GRIFFIN was referred to as 'Death Metal' in an old issue of Metal Forces.

I have a theory:
Some time in that horrible decade known as the 90's some clueless journalist must have thought "Power Metal" sounded like like the perfect monicker for hymnish, anthemic Speed-Metal-light stuff like Gamma Ray, late Helloween, Rhapsody etc and from thereon the nick spread like wildfire. Considering how huge this genre is today I'm afraid the devaluation of the label is unstopable. When some people claim that HELLOWEEN "created" Power Metal, it is this definition they're referring to and as much as I dislike this definiton I still have to agree to some extent. SNAFU

As for Doom Metal, the only claim about "creating" the genre I've heard concerning CANDLEMASS is that they were the first band to label themselves Doom Metal.

Nicko McBuff · Post by **Nicko McBuff** » Sun Jun 24, 2007 8:18 am

Didn't bands like Sortilège, Aria (for example) and many other bands we listen to on these boards... play power metal? I see plenty of euro bands from the 80s labeled it. They sound power metal to me. So I'm confused as to why people keep raising the Amercian vs European arguement. Shouldn't it be 80s Power Metal sounds vs Watered down Helloween flower metal? That wiki entry posted here is shit. I still use the term with pride, just because some fairies got their hands on guitars doesn't mean I'm going to stop using it. Lets take it back!

DMR wrote: OK, I got it. Power metal is heavy metal with some thrashy riffs

What the?

Noisenik · Post by **Noisenik** » Sun Jun 24, 2007 9:58 am

DaN wrote:My definition of Power Metal is much the same as FenderMediums, but the term is so confusing these days I'm almost considering to stop using it. If you look in old zines and mags from the early/mid 80's terms like Power/Speed/Death/Thrash was used pretty interchangeably on all sorts of bands slightly heavier than Saxon or Judas Priest. Heck, even GRIFFIN was referred to as 'Death Metal' in an old issue of Metal Forces.

I have a theory:
Some time in that horrible decade known as the 90's some clueless journalist must have thought "Power Metal" sounded like like the perfect monicker for hymnish, anthemic Speed-Metal-light stuff like Gamma Ray, late Helloween, Rhapsody etc and from thereon the nick spread like wildfire. Considering how huge this genre is today I'm afraid the devaluation of the label is unstopable. When some people claim that HELLOWEEN "created" Power Metal, it is this definition they're referring to and as much as I dislike this definiton I still have to agree to some extent. SNAFU

As for Doom Metal, the only claim about "creating" the genre I've heard concerning CANDLEMASS is that they were the first band to label themselves Doom Metal.

As far as I know the term "Power Metal" was first used on Noise ad for Helloween debut mini. Do you remember those neat Noise innersleeves? I loved them and they still evoke nostalgia in me. That was time when diversification of Metal sound demanded some labeling and Noise seemed to be the most eager for doing that. So credit easy went into hands of European band. The responsibility for all that lies on a band whom we can ascribe one whole Metal genre (if you like it or not) - Metallica. Thrash originators with some help of media (which came later). Power Metal is kinda funny label. Like Metal itself wouldn't be powerful enough. But mind you, in the beginning things were not called the way they are today, if they had name at all. Let's say bands like Culprit, Jag Panzer, etc. fallen prey of beginning too early. Also: Metal was more popular in Europe than in States at the time, esp. the harsher versions. So, in US there were less interest to push things on.

The term US Metal is also of German origin, me thinks, whose primary aim was to instill some differences between NWOBHM, American bands and, funny again, euro (Power) Metal bands.

Things are quite messy and call for some definitive historical investigation. But I like 'em both ways.

DMR · Post by **DMR** » Sun Jun 24, 2007 9:13 pm

Nicko McBuff wrote:
DMR wrote:OK, I got it. Power metal is heavy metal with some thrashy riffs
What the? :shock:

Isn't that pretty much what FenderMedium said?

FenderMedium wrote:I would say the are a mixture of heavy metal and thrash metal not speed metal, they took the choppy riffs and aggression from thrash metal but not necessarily always speed

FenderMedium · Post by **FenderMedium** » Sun Jun 24, 2007 9:23 pm

"Mixture" is the keyword here, I didn't say its just heavy metal with some random thrash riffs thrown in,Its a mixture of heavy metal and thrash metal and its not always equal parts.

I don't like the term speed metal as it can only be applied to certain albums and/ore songs by bands of other genres.

DMR · Post by **DMR** » Sun Jun 24, 2007 9:41 pm

FenderMedium wrote:"Mixture" is the keyword here, I didn't say its just heavy metal with some random thrash riffs thrown in,Its a mixture of heavy metal and thrash metal and its not always equal parts.

You're right, it's definitely not a mixture of equal proportions. Many of the bands you listed barely have any thrash in their sound. I agree that bands like Liege Lord and Helstar are a heavy/thrash mixture, but for most of the others, I think it makes more sense to call them "thrash-influenced heavy metal" than to create a seperate subgenre for them.

FenderMedium · Post by **FenderMedium** » Sun Jun 24, 2007 9:47 pm

People already do they call them power/thrash heavy/thrash and sometimes heavy/power metal according to the mixture the band uses.

DMR · Post by **DMR** » Tue Jun 26, 2007 9:37 pm

Well, OK. Like I said before, that just seems like splitting hairs.

FenderMedium wrote:Many times we've heard the statement "Helloween created power metal" and Candlemass are milestone of doom metal and sometimes people even go on to say they even created it the genre,because they were the most known band at that point they were projected to a status which they do not deserve just because of one album,why are people so quick to adopt these blanket terms and claim them as concrete fact?

I will agree helloween pioneered power metal as we know it today or that candlemass was a pioneer of the epic doom subgenre but I will never agree with these outrageous claims of them being creators of entire genres.

I would expect this from someone who wasn't even into metal at all but half the people saying this shit are and have been into metal for many years and still claim such stupid things as fact.

There are even some who don't know what doom and power metal are which is pretty weird, what are your guys views on this phenomenon and what kind of idiots have you encountered saying such things?

I suppose after all this, someone should answer the question you originally asked! Here's my view on it. I think people call Helloween the power metal originators because the term never really "caught on" before the mid-'90s. I think there are two reasons for that. One, because in the '80s, there was never really an agreed-upon definition of power metal. Two, none of the bands who played that style were well-known (except for Metal Church and maybe Sanctuary), so the average metalhead at the time probably wasn't aware of the term "power metal" or most of the bands who played it.

mordred · Post by **mordred** » Tue Jun 26, 2007 9:50 pm

Helloween created doom metal.

FenderMedium · Post by **FenderMedium** » Tue Jun 26, 2007 9:55 pm

Nice one

Helm · Post by **Helm** » Tue Jun 26, 2007 9:58 pm

Candlemass didn't create Doom Metal. They gave birth to Epic Doom Metal, which is a slightly different beast and one nobody should feel guilty to assign to them, even though other bands had epic qualities and slow songs before them. The record is named 'Epicus Doomicus Metallicus' for christ's sake, it's alright, give it to them.

Helloween didn't create anything initially. They played uh... um, Speed, when a lot of german bands were playing speed. Walls of Jericho is my favourite album of theirs and it's vicious as it is melodic, raw as it is sing-alongable. How metal should be. The two Keepers were very immitated though, and a lot of people think of them when they think of Power Metal, but there certainly was Power Metal of a different type before them, and after them.

Noisenik · Post by **Noisenik** » Tue Jun 26, 2007 10:00 pm

Mordred rules!

FenderMedium · Post by **FenderMedium** » Tue Jun 26, 2007 10:36 pm

Helm wrote:Candlemass didn't create Doom Metal. They gave birth to Epic Doom Metal, which is a slightly different beast and one nobody should feel guilty to assign to them, even though other bands had epic qualities and slow songs before them. The record is named 'Epicus Doomicus Metallicus' for christ's sake, it's alright, give it to them.

I believe I did say they created epic doom in my initial post,but I was addressing many people not into doom metal trying to look like they know something by saying such things, I suppose its more of an uneducated attempt for those outside the loop to look smart to others outside the loop.

By the way does anyone have a rip of Sorcerer(swe) S/T in 192 or better,I have it in 128 and it sort of lacks because of that. I know a compilation of available to buy but not this particular album I think dan should allow it in this case,that is if anyone has it in 192.