Early Black Metal - what were the bands?

[80sKid]

Sub-genres are such a gray area, it's all open to interpretation. Although I personally disagree with some of the entries, I think Rick's list is comprehensive and well thought out. Everyone's criteria is different. Arguing bullshit semantics is a waste of time.

[MEXDefenderOfSteel]

Sub-genres are such a gray area, it's all open to interpretation. Although I personally disagree with some of the entries, I think Rick's list is comprehensive and well thought out. Everyone's criteria is different. Arguing bullshit semantics is a waste of time.

agreed...metal or not metal at all, simple as that imo

[J.K.]

RUNNING WILD were not black metal in the sense of the 2nd wave BM bands, but their music on the first albums was so dark and evil that I personally can't find a better term to describe it.

But did they influence any Black Metal band of the "second wave" ? I don't think so. Thus it's weird to call them "black metal" OR "roots of black metal" since -to my knowledge- none of the pionneers where listening to gates or branded when they created "second wave BM".


The big problem with Black Metal and its definition is that the term comes from early 80's, but the musical style (and there is definitively one) has been formed later, in reaction to what were becoming the "Death Metal standards"...


What I wonder too is, why people never call Bathory a Death Metal act since Quorthon himself did it in the 80's, and Swedish Death metallers (Nihilist, Carnage...) claims to have been influenced by them... So, people like to imagine a "first wave" of black metal but never a first wave of death metal? (and what about calling Bathory a Thrash metal band in fact?)

I got a headache now.

Anyway I think that the whole "first wave/second wave" is really not appropriate to explain BM. And first of all because this was absolutely not a "WAVE" in the 80's... But bands here and there, not knowing each other, sometimes hatin' each other (I read Cronos wanted King Diamond dead hahaha).

[J.K.]

In fact I am totally agree with Daniel/Nathaniel/Omen of Hate, especially on page 3.

"It seems that all bands that have satanic/occult lyrics are now labelled "early black metal" That sums it all for me.

[ION BRITTON]

RUNNING WILD were not black metal in the sense of the 2nd wave BM bands, but their music on the first albums was so dark and evil that I personally can't find a better term to describe it.

But did they influence any Black Metal band of the "second wave" ? I don't think so. Thus it's weird to call them "black metal" OR "roots of black metal" since -to my knowledge- none of the pionneers where listening to gates or branded when they created "second wave BM".

It doesn't have to do with who influenced who. 2nd wave black bands might have been listening to Iron Maiden as well. That doesn't make Maiden black metal or black metal pioneers or 1st wave of black metal. It's the feeling you get from listening to those records more than anything else.

[ION BRITTON]

I've been reading the whole thread again - with the exception of a few posts this is definitely one of the best and most serious discussions ever made in this forum. It's a bit weird that it concerns 'early black metal', but if I were to choose 10 threads to show someone what the hell this Corroseum forum is, this thread would surely be one of them. Cheers to everyone who contributed - we should be proud of it

[Cochino]

Yeah, I was re-reading this thread as well. Shouldn't Deep Switch be considered? I think I didn't see them named, The artwork and the songs Nine Inches From God and The Dark Angel could fit the bill, although I don't know if two tracks are enough to include them here,

[GJ]

Anyway I think that the whole "first wave/second wave" is really not appropriate to explain BM. And first of all because this was absolutely not a "WAVE" in the 80's... But bands here and there, not knowing each other, sometimes hatin' each other (I read Cronos wanted King Diamond dead hahaha).

Well, at least that part spilled over to the "second wave", didn't it?

Oh, sorry Ion!

[Cochino]

The big problem with Black Metal and its definition is that the term comes from early 80's, but the musical style (and there is definitively one) has been formed later, in reaction to what were becoming the "Death Metal standards"...

Well, a bit of off-topic here but some people called stuff like Slayer Death Metal as well. And to some people a band like Master isn't really Death Metal so I guess there's sort of a first wave thing (there's also the "Death Metal" demo by No Mercy if we want to go there ), but since Death Metal was always about the music more than "philosophies" there wasn't that much of a trouble defining which bands were Death and which weren't. But yeah, as proof of your statement just listen to Death Breath, which is at the same time Death Metal but sometimes very close to dirty and raw speed/thrash bands like Bulldözer and Bathory (they even play a Bathory cover).
As I said before, but this was months ago so I'll repeat it, I do think that Black Metal is a genre and that most bands named in this thread aren't really Black Metal bands. I just play along so I get to talk about bands I do like since I'm not really into Black Metal.

Quote edited/ION

[ION BRITTON]

Anyway I think that the whole "first wave/second wave" is really not appropriate to explain BM. And first of all because this was absolutely not a "WAVE" in the 80's... But bands here and there, not knowing each other, sometimes hatin' each other (I read Cronos wanted King Diamond dead hahaha).

Well, at least that part spilled over to the "second wave", didn't it?

Oh, sorry Ion!

Damn you, now you ruined the thread. Ban!



Of course I wasn't talking about this kind of posts

[J.K.]

In reaction to the opening list, I'd like to add that cataloging these bands "Black Metal" sounds CRAZY to me :


Iron Angel (Ger)
Possessed (USA)
Running Wild (Ger)
Holocausto (Bra)
NME (USA)
Savage Death (USA)
Schizo (Ita)
Sepultura (Bra)
Voor (Can)
Hadez (Peru)
Infernäl Mäjesty (Can)
Mefisto (Swe)
Obscurity (Swe)
Pentagram (Chi)
Retrosatan (Arg)
Sarcófago (Bra)
Slaughter Lord (Aus)


All of this bands are SPEED METAL or THRASH METAL or DEATH/THRASH with Satanic imagery. Absolutely not Black Metal to me


ION BRITTON: I just got the feeling that the more years pass, the more "first wave BM bands" appears (that were never included before), like Running Wild for example.

[J.K.]

Also, for the glory, I'll like to add that this bastard of Wagner Antichrist claimed many times in the 90's that Sarcofago was NEVER a satanic band...


"yeaah, of course man!"

[ION BRITTON]

If we're thinking in 90's terms, maybe none of the 80's bands were really black metal and I don't mean to put RUNNING WILD or any other similar band to the 1st wave of black metal (if there ever was one..) just to make them look cool and kvlt. For the 80's, for me that term describes sufficiently the band of the first 2 albums as they had the sound, the image and the lyrics as well, the whole thing has a very dark and blackened vibe and to tell you the truth I find the feeling of their music more 'black' than many of the 90's 'real' black metal bands. Same thing goes for SATAN'S HOST.

[J.K.]

If we're thinking in 90's terms, maybe none of the 80's bands were really black metal

Not exactly. In fact, I think that there weren't "100% Black Metal" or "pure BM" bands, but bands that contains some key elements of what will become Black Metal.

It's exatcly the same with some bands at the end of the 60's who sometimes pionneered the HEAVY sound, without doing Heavy music. (I don't know if I'm clear here).


As for the musical roots of the "second wave", those albums are mega-closed ancestors:

Anno Domini by Tormentor
The Black Metal songs on Blood Fire Death by Bathory
Ritual by Master's Hammer
Witchhammer by Törr

and few others but they are all from late 80's.


As for VENOM, some consider them the first ever Thrash metal band. That's understandable.

So, endless debate haha. I think the wiser position is to know that 80's band was just "extreme metal pionneer". They paved the way for thrash, then death and black.


As for 90's Black Metal, it seems that not many people like that here haha. There is a bunch of masterpieces (TRADITIONNAL and OLD with that) though.

[roihlem]

Have read just a few posts of this thread and it is all very confusing. To me the "first wave BM" doesn`t exist, as all bands from all genres with satanic lyrics are labeled as BM. I dont see any similarities between Mercyful Fate, Sodom and the later more brutal stuff. It looks like fist wave BM bands must fullfill two criteria, being Metal and having "black" lyrics. By this Running Wild should be also included...On the other hand I wonder, why only the 80s releases are labeled as BM then? It seems that a lot of people are labeling Mercyful Fate`s "Nuns Have No Fun" or "Melissa" as Black Metal, while I never saw a word about Black Metal mentioned in any review of their 9 album.
Just a bit "off-topic", am I the only one who thinks that second wave BM has more similarities to old HC than to old Metal? I do not hear that much heaviness or riffs in bands like Xasthur, Nachmystium or Mutiilation. I love their music for the atmosphere they create, but don`t think they have too much in common with some 80s metal bands. I mean when I hear some old Yugo HC compilations, I think "damn guitarwise this sounds like BM"... On that side I understand why some older people label those old 80s bands as Black Metal.....