Urget question regarding [CD] 1st press

[kansa_666@hotmail.com]

Hi everyone, I got a few urgent questions regarding cd 1st press. You answers will help me to decide bidding prices of rare cds on ebay that will end soon.

On musik-sampler.de, more than likely, you will encounter situations where a band released an album in certain year in one country, while at the same time, it's also pressed in another . However, sometimes only one copy gets the (Erstauflage) property. I am just wondering, isn't the other one considered to be the first press as well? Or it's of lesser value in a degree?

A good example would be:
Demolition Hammer - Epidemic Of Violence
(http://www.musik-sammler.de/album/27319)
Only the Ger press is credited as the 1st press. What is happening to the US press?

Is this a similar scenario as what happened to Sodom - Persecution Mania?
(http://www.musik-sammler.de/album/3208),
where only the copy without a bar code is considered to be the very first press. But keep in mind that both cds are pressed in Ger for this case.

And what bothers me more is that, for lots of cds, they are not even one copy with (Erstauflage) propety, such as:
Metallica - ...And Justice For All
(http://www.musik-sammler.de/album/1311)
Why is that? There must be one copy that came out first. Are they too lazy to put up the "Erstauflage" marker or they simply don't know which one was marketed first?

And one more thing, for another case where a band release their first album in demo / LP form, and for some year later, they got re-pressed on cds for the first time. Are these cds counted as 1st press as well?
For example:

Tormentor - Anno Domini Eclipse 004
(http://www.musik-sammler.de/album/53511)
and
Exciter - Unveiling The Wicked Globus International press
http://www.musik-sammler.de/album/8887

Thank you very much for your replies. You help is deeply appreciated

[sovdat]

Some people just don't pick the "erstauflage" option when they are entering the album into the database. Either they don't know if it is or they just don't care. Also there's a lot of things that are titled as 1st pressings although they might not be ... All that can be reported on the M-S forum, but it takes a while

As for the the albums that were released on the CDs for the 1st time years later after it's original issue - I don't really know on these, perhaps there are some rules made by MS staff? Technically they are 1st CD pressings indeed

And welcome on board!

[kansa_666@hotmail.com]

Thanks a lot for the info. Maybe, we should have our very own metal rarity database. There are too many ppl already on ebay making false claim of their cds' pressing. So, even with MS, there is still not enough resources to detect false / misleading advertising of the sellers. Anyway, does anymore know if there are any other sites where we can locate better information in regards to heavy metal cds pressing? I accidentally found one from a guy collecting rare Japaneses Import cds. Here's the link:
http://metaldenfer.dyndns.org/main.php3 ... bel=Combat
The guy who did this is probably lurking somewhere in this forum.

[rooster]

Thanks a lot for the info. Maybe, we should have our very own metal rarity database. There are too many ppl already on ebay making false claim of their cds' pressing. So, even with MS, there is still not enough resources to detect false / misleading advertising of the sellers. Anyway, does anymore know if there are any other sites where we can locate better information in regards to heavy metal cds pressing? I accidentally found one from a guy collecting rare Japaneses Import cds. Here's the link:
http://metaldenfer.dyndns.org/main.php3 ... bel=Combat
The guy who did this is probably lurking somewhere in this forum.

You are absolutely right, mate. I posted this idea at one polish forum, that there is necessity to start a new site, where people can upload scans (only scans not photos) of front, back cover, maybe booklet, and of course scan of disc with visible matrix code and info what release is it. I don't know how to make such site, so i think, that i must wait as someone else will do it, then i will contribute

[perishinflames]

I think "1st press" in itself is kind of misleading, in many cases there is no way to truly be sure. Some CDs have been pressed multiple times, but are exactly 100% the same, including matrix and such. If a pressing sells out, a band or label could order more from the same plant and they could be identical.

Epidemic of Violence US press was made no sooner or later than the German copies I'm sure, that's just a matter of different country releases. However the US pressing of it has at least two different pressings (first one with Nimbus matrix, second with Sony DADC) but are otherwise identical. But either of these would likely be sold as 'first press' and very few people would know the difference.

I don't know when Persecution Mania was first released in Europe, but there is a USA release that I believe is actually from 1987 (SHCD 7000).

[kansa_666@hotmail.com]

Thanks a lot for the info. Maybe, we should have our very own metal rarity database. There are too many ppl already on ebay making false claim of their cds' pressing. So, even with MS, there is still not enough resources to detect false / misleading advertising of the sellers. Anyway, does anymore know if there are any other sites where we can locate better information in regards to heavy metal cds pressing? I accidentally found one from a guy collecting rare Japaneses Import cds. Here's the link:
http://metaldenfer.dyndns.org/main.php3 ... bel=Combat
The guy who did this is probably lurking somewhere in this forum.

You are absolutely right, mate. I posted this idea at one polish forum, that there is necessity to start a new site, where people can upload scans (only scans not photos) of front, back cover, maybe booklet, and of course scan of disc with visible matrix code and info what release is it. I don't know how to make such site, so i think, that i must wait as someone else will do it, then i will contribute

Yeah, great idea, we also need ppl who have the originals to contribute, MS is a good site, but it's not as precise as we need it. The ambiguity and errors leave cheap bustards on ebay a chance to constantly rip ppl off. I like the idea of disc and back insert scan, this will eliminate those cheap boots or counterfeits circulating in the market. Matrix scan is a bit difficult, how do you stop the cd from reflecting your camera flash?

[kansa_666@hotmail.com]

I think "1st press" in itself is kind of misleading, in many cases there is no way to truly be sure. Some CDs have been pressed multiple times, but are exactly 100% the same, including matrix and such. If a pressing sells out, a band or label could order more from the same plant and they could be identical.

Thanks a lot for pointing that out! It's really helpful. And speaking of which, at the current stage of development in counterfeit industry, is it safe to assuming that as long as your cd matrix matches the one listed in the MS database or a legitimate copy of your friend, you can say it's 100% 1st press? Is it possible for a counterfeit maker to order from the same plant and print identical versions of the original copy without licensing from the owner? Would those cd manufacture plant make those copies for them?

Cuz I've just brought 2 moderately rare cds and a common one on egay.
The first one is Anacrusis - Suffering hour as shown below:






The cd came without case and it looks fishy. As you can see from the pictures, the front insert is blur with cheap printing, the letters "Anacrusis - Suffering hour" printed on the spine is blur and you can actually see the second layer of black ink lies on top of the original red ink layer. There is no lyrics whatsoever, only 2 pages front insert made with oily reflective paper other than the common one used for cds booklets. The craft-work for the disc itself is decent though. The cd matrix matches the one listed in MS, "72432-2 (V): Mastered By Nimbus" and it does have "printed in Canada" on the back cover.

The other cd is "Intruder - Psycho Savant", the 1991 french metal blade press. It was charged for $30 excluding postage. Does this issue count as the 1st press as well, or it's just a rip off. Say If you don't have this cd in your collection, would you go for this copy or the US copy?

The thrid one is Testament - Legacy. It's a first press with serious sunburn on one side of the spine in the back insert, the color is pretty much all faded. The seller didn't mention a thing and labeled it as mint, as compared to pricekiller001's clearly indication of bad cd conditions. Does this significantly decrease the value of the cd? Cuz everything else was fine. I don't want to leave him a negative feedback for this, cuz he might be making a living out of selling rare cds and sometimes it's tuff to do rarity business as you charge higher, ppl would immediately assume good qualities.

[Helstar]

Speaking of which, at the current stage of development in counterfeit industry, is it safe to assuming that as long as your cd matrix matches the one listed in the MS database or a legitimate copy of your friend, you can say it's 100% 1st press?

Matrix are identical half of the times :\ doesn't matter anymore sadly

Is it possible for a counterfeit maker to order from the same plant and print identical versions of the original copy without licensing from the owner? Would those cd manufacture plant make those copies for them?

This is an 'extreme' situation which will never happen ... should we need to explain the reasons ?

Cuz I've just brought 2 moderately rare cds and a common one on egay.
The first one is Anacrusis - Suffering hour as shown below:

The Anacrusis cd looks 100% legit, but that 'red-black' spine is strange, my copy is not like that ^^ but could be a different batch, who knows.

The other cd is "Intruder - Psycho Savant", the 1991 french metal blade press. It was charged for $30 excluding postage. Does this issue count as the 1st press as well, or it's just a rip off. Say If you don't have this cd in your collection, would you go for this copy or the US copy?

I have the french print too, for me it's fine, on MS it isn't showed as "first press" but who cares
I think it's "first press" even that one btw (just USA and European versions published at the same time).

The thrid one is Testament - Legacy. It's a first press with serious sunburn on one side of the spine in the back insert, the color is pretty much all faded. The seller didn't mention a thing and labeled it as mint, as compared to pricekiller001's clearly indication of bad cd conditions. Does this significantly decrease the value of the cd? Cuz everything else was fine though. I don't want to leave him a negative feedback for this though, he might be making a living out of selling rare cds and sometimes it's tuff to do rarity business as you charge higher, ppl would immediately assume good qualities.

This is something you should fix with the seller I would ask for a partial refund.

[kansa_666@hotmail.com]

This is an 'extreme' situation which will never happen ... should we need to explain the reason ? Smile

Yes please go ahead. But I am also curious as for why the cd matrix could still be the same even they are not printed by the same manufacture plant? Would you go ahead further?

Does your suffering hour has single booklet as well?

And by the way, for the bloody red-ink layer, who else has got that? Don't tell me it's only me.

[rooster]

Thanks a lot for the info. Maybe, we should have our very own metal rarity database. There are too many ppl already on ebay making false claim of their cds' pressing. So, even with MS, there is still not enough resources to detect false / misleading advertising of the sellers. Anyway, does anymore know if there are any other sites where we can locate better information in regards to heavy metal cds pressing? I accidentally found one from a guy collecting rare Japaneses Import cds. Here's the link:
http://metaldenfer.dyndns.org/main.php3 ... bel=Combat
The guy who did this is probably lurking somewhere in this forum.

You are absolutely right, mate. I posted this idea at one polish forum, that there is necessity to start a new site, where people can upload scans (only scans not photos) of front, back cover, maybe booklet, and of course scan of disc with visible matrix code and info what release is it. I don't know how to make such site, so i think, that i must wait as someone else will do it, then i will contribute

Yeah, great idea, we also need ppl who have the originals to contribute, MS is a good site, but it's not as precise as we need it. Matrix scan is a bit difficult, how do you stop the cd from reflecting your camera flash?

Scan (not photo) will show matrix code well. See for yourself.

[Helstar]

Yes please go ahead

It's so unlikely that it's almost unuseful, seriously
But let's assume the original manufacturer 'agrees' to make another batch not for the legit label, but for some unknown bootlegers ... there are many problems I can think of:

- do they still own the 'masters' of cd/inlays, thus capable of printing another identical batch without 'reverse-engineering' (like 100% of bootlegers are doing now) ?

- how many years later of the original pressing ? Even one could mean totally different materials for either cds/inlays, different printing machines/process etc. most of rare cds have at least 15/20+ years, you figure the differences that could have those plants ! (assuming they are still working...)

But I am also curious as for why the cd matrix could still be the same even they are not printed by the same manufacture plant? Would you go ahead further?

The matrix code consists in letters/numbers/symbols that "you" carbon copy. Simple as that. It's hard to replicate exactly the 'font' and the type of the matrix (traslucent, mirrored, etc).

Does your suffering hour has single booklet as well?
And by the way, for the bloody red-ink layer, who else has got that? Don't tell me it's only me.

I think it's the original, don't worry. The booklet is the same, everything is the same except that spine... but I wouldn't worry about that ^^ let's see what others think anyway.

[kansa_666@hotmail.com]

You are absolutely right, mate. I posted this idea at one polish forum, that there is necessity to start a new site, where people can upload scans (only scans not photos) of front, back cover, maybe booklet, and of course scan of disc with visible matrix code and info what release is it. I don't know how to make such site, so i think, that i must wait as someone else will do it, then i will contribute

Yeah, great idea, we also need ppl who have the originals to contribute, MS is a good site, but it's not as precise as we need it. Matrix scan is a bit difficult, how do you stop the cd from reflecting your camera flash?

Scan (not photo) will show matrix code well. See for yourself.

Kool, but what device do they use to scan the disc though. Are the cds are very likely to be scratched during the scanning proess?
ps: How did you know this is what I am looking for lol.

[kansa_666@hotmail.com]

Yes please go ahead

It's so unlikely that it's almost unuseful, seriously
But let's assume the original manufacturer 'agrees' to make another batch not for the legit label, but for some unknown bootlegers ... there are many problems I can think of:

- do they still own the 'masters' of cd/inlays, thus capable of printing another identical batch without 'reverse-engineering' (like 100% of bootlegers are doing now) ?

- how many years later of the original pressing ? Even one could mean totally different materials for either cds/inlays, different printing machines/process etc. most of rare cds have at least 15/20+ years, you figure the differences that could have those plants ! (assuming they are still working...)

But I am also curious as for why the cd matrix could still be the same even they are not printed by the same manufacture plant? Would you go ahead further?

The matrix code consists in letters/numbers/symbols that "you" carbon copy. Simple as that. It's hard to replicate exactly the 'font' and the type of the matrix (traslucent, mirrored, etc).

Does your suffering hour has single booklet as well?
And by the way, for the bloody red-ink layer, who else has got that? Don't tell me it's only me.

I think it's the original, don't worry. The booklet is the same, everything is the same except that spine... but I wouldn't worry about that ^^ let's see what others think anyway.

Awesome info bro, learnt some thing today. Your GUYS should do a Ph.D of heavy metal cd pressing .

Are there any ways to effectively tell the difference between these boots / conterfreits and the original copy? Once a friend told me about smelling the cd inserts. If it's a 80's original, it will possess a pleasant smell of ink. But for some bootlegers, to cut their budgets, they use cheap ink and the result is stinky cd booklet pages. It works like a chram for some boots but not all. Cuz these ppl are getting damn smart and close every single day. I think if anyone of them saw the crazy egay biding session in this forum, they would seriously consider making more identical pirate copies nowadays. I remember the second boot of piledriber cd was so much better in all qualites than the lazy full moon crap. Many ppl would go for it other than the original lps, not too mention that some aussie printings are even worse than the boots. I got a vertigo edition of master of puppets made down under. I mean they literally made it down under there in thier pants without using thier hands and proper tools . They booklet was so bad that everything is so blur and layers can be seen on top of each other. That's why now I am considering a upgrade to DDC discs, or Music for Nation originals if I can get them cheap.

And by the way, are there any chances for a Chinese edition of Metallica - S/T with Chinese OBI to sell for a good value?

[rooster]

i made that scan!:) with normal scanner. And the scanning process is absolutely safe, no scratches, because it is only light beam.

[kansa_666@hotmail.com]

i made that scan!:) with normal scanner. And the scanning process is absolutely safe, no scratches, because it is only light beam.

Nice! But what if for some discs, the matrix is only visble on the playalble side? Does it also work as well?