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We had a discussion in the mods sub-forum and the opinions were divided so i thought it would be useful to see what other forum members think of it before we make our decision. It's a more Poisonoise-related issue, but it can apply to Metal Conquest as well.

The question is:

Can Ebay and other similar auction sites be used as a reference for commercially available albums?

By ''commercially available'' we mean available to everyone regardless of where he is located. The seller/shop who is selling the item must ship worldwide in that case.

So, what do you think of it? Ebay is available to the general public, but is everyone obliged to give his credit card # to be able to buy certain albums that can't be found anywhere else? What if the seller/shop doesn't ship worldwide? Many sellers ship worldwide but demand payment thru paypal for buyer outside their country. What about those who for x reason don't use paypal? What are the differences between a typical distro/online shop where you are required to create an account but you only give your shipping address info (and which you would give anyhow if you decided to place an order) and ebay? Many ebay sellers sell used copies, how accurate are their descriptions? When they say "like new" do they mean that the album has been played once and it looks like new or do they mean that it's still sealed?

Let us know what you think, any response is much appreciated.

I think "Commercially available" should refer to if that particular album is still in circulation or not. Buying used or an overstock/deleted/discontinued copy from eBay does not make an album "commercially available" or at least not in the business sense of the term anyway.

I'd say that if the label/official distributors sold out, then this album is no longer commercially available.

stormspell wrote:Buying used or an overstock/deleted/discontinued copy from eBay does not make an album "commercially available" or at least not in the business sense of the term anyway.

I'd say that if the label/official distributors sold out, then this album is no longer commercially available.

That's my opinion as well.

Are there any official distributors on ebay though? Do the labels state except from the distros which other ebay/auction site sellers are officially distributing their stuff? And if that has happened once or twice, can we generalize it by saying that every album that is on ebay and it is described as ''like new'' should be considered commercially available regardless of who's selling it?

I agree w/ Stormspell's definition

Regarding "Like New", I do NOT think that phrase in any way implies an item is Brand New/Still Sealed/Straight from the Factory. To me, "Like New" means "USED but has no damage at all so it looks like a copy that just came out of the shrink wrap". Used copies do NOT count towards commercial availability; if they do, then every record ever made is still commercially available unless you're certain a copy will never again be offered for sale.

Regarding distribs and the Paypal factor: I wouldn't really differentiate sites based on how people do or do not pay. If a title is still offered for sale (regardless of payment methods accepted) through distributors with 'real' websites (e.g., Shadow Kingdom, Stormspell, Sentinel Steel, Hells Headbangers, Bindrune, NWN, etc) then IMO it is still commercially available. If the title is ONLY available from 'individual distributors' posting on ebay, myspace, or in places like the Take it Or Leave It forum, then I would not consider it to be commercially available.
If the distinction seems blurry, I would consider the former to be official businesses while the latter are not (no disrespect meant to indie distributors, several of whom I buy from regularly and like dealing with). Put another way, it's the difference between saying, "I'm gonna go to the Stormspell Store to buy that cd" and saying, "I know a guy that has some copies of that cd for sale".

Hope that makes sense and helps

if it is a LEGIT and NEW release, rerelease or whatever then I'd call it commercially available, no matter if it is on ebay or some weird Uzbek or Malayian distro, or amazon and everywhere else. If one really wants it, he can (more or less.. ) easily get it then.

availability as used would certainly not qualify an album as "commercially available" - then nearly every release would be "commercially available" as 99% of everything will show up used on ebay sooner or later - with usually questionable prices. I guess though, nobody would consider it so, anyway.

ION BRITTON wrote:Are there any official distributors on ebay though?

Almost every label/distributor have an eGay store nowadays: Relapse, Metal Blade, Massacre, Crash Music, Lost & Found, Power Play, Dark Symphonies, The End, etc. you name it.

For eGay specifically I'd deem a release commercially available only if it is offered in quantities for a fixed "buy it now" price. I wouldn't deem it acceptable if the release is sold one copy at a time auction style so people have to outbid themselves for it. You have to be able to go and buy it flat-out for a regular fixed price, in my opinion anyway.

stormspell wrote:

ION BRITTON wrote:Are there any official distributors on ebay though?

For eGay specifically I'd deem a release commercially available only if it is offered in quantities for a fixed "buy it now" price. I wouldn't deem it acceptable if the release is sold one copy at a time auction style so people have to outbid themselves for it. You have to be able to go and buy it flat-out for a regular fixed price, in my opinion anyway.

I'd go along with that

What about those that don't purchase music online, PERIOD which is unarguably the majority?

To them ANY album not sold on the shelf of their local music store is not "commercially available".

Where do you draw the line?

Avenger wrote:What about those that don't purchase music online, PERIOD which is unarguably the majority?

To them ANY album not sold on the shelf of their local music store is not "commercially available".

Where do you draw the line?

Well, the number of people who refuse to shop online is an ever-shrinking customer group and is mainly rooted in older people who aren't comfortable using computers at all. Thus, i don't think this is a group that should really enter into discussions of consumer electronics products. IF people choose not to shop online that is their choice, but then they have to deal with the fact that MANY things are not available to them BUT they are available to the rest of the world. Most people have not bought vinyl since the 1980s, but that doesn't mean that vinyl is not still made and is commercially available for those that want to obtain it

nightsblood wrote:Most people have not bought vinyl since the 1980s, but that doesn't mean that vinyl is not still made and is commercially available for those that want to obtain it

Which is exactly my point. Just because someone refuses to purchase something on ebay does not mean that it's not easily/commercially available there.

As far as I'm concerned, unless something turns up online less then X amount of times per year then it's still available for purchase. The term "commercially" is really just too broad.

Avenger wrote:

nightsblood wrote:Most people have not bought vinyl since the 1980s, but that doesn't mean that vinyl is not still made and is commercially available for those that want to obtain it

Which is exactly my point. Just because someone refuses to purchase something on ebay does not mean that it's not easily/commercially available there.

As far as I'm concerned, unless something turns up online less then X amount of times per year then it's still available for purchase. The term "commercially" is really just too broad.

When I said some people still buy vinyl, that is because vinyl is still made new at the factory and offered for sale as new releases and certain businesses stock it so people can buy it. But after awhile the releases are no longer stocked even by those specialty stores and thus the item is no longer really available.
Once an item is no longer in stores, the only way to get the item then is to buy it from some individual who has copies that are used, leftovers, cut-outs, overstocks, etc. I do not consider such items to still be commercially available for several reasons:
1- no new copies of the item are still being manufactured
2- sales of these leftover copies do not generate any money for the band or label
3- the price of the item is usually very different; some 'leftover' items sell much cheaper than they did when first released, others sell for much more.
4- There is no set location to go to get the item, you just have to wait until someone lists it on ebay, a used copy shows up at the local record store, etc.

Your definition of whether an item turns up for sale online less than X times per year defines whether an old item is READILY available. This is different IMO from being COMMERCIALLY available (see reasons 1-4 above). I've seen at least half a dozen copies of Bathory's yellow goat LP for sale this year- is that album still commercially availbale just b/c 6 folks have decided to sell copies within a 6 month period?

Since this thread seems tied to Poisonoise posts, I'm guessing that folks are debating what should and should not be posted therein. This is why I think the difference between 'commercially' and 'readily' available is important. If the album is still being produced and distributed, then sales of the record still (in theory) generate royalties for the band and the label, and thus posting such things in Poisonoise would be questionable as it would potentially steal sales from bands and labels.
However, once an album is only available whenever copies happen to appear randomly on ebay (i.e., no longer "commercially available") then neither the label nor the band is seeing any profits from the sales of those copies. Posting this kind of thing on Poisonoise is not taking money out of anyone's pockets.
Hope i'm not wandering off topic. Some more info about what is being debated among Mods might help focus the discussion a little better.

nightsblood wrote:

Avenger wrote:

nightsblood wrote:Most people have not bought vinyl since the 1980s, but that doesn't mean that vinyl is not still made and is commercially available for those that want to obtain it

Which is exactly my point. Just because someone refuses to purchase something on ebay does not mean that it's not easily/commercially available there.

As far as I'm concerned, unless something turns up online less then X amount of times per year then it's still available for purchase. The term "commercially" is really just too broad.

When I said some people still buy vinyl, that is because vinyl is still made new at the factory and offered for sale as new releases and certain businesses stock it so people can buy it. But after awhile the releases are no longer stocked even by those specialty stores and thus the item is no longer really available.
Once an item is no longer in stores, the only way to get the item then is to buy it from some individual who has copies that are used, leftovers, cut-outs, overstocks, etc. I do not consider such items to still be commercially available for several reasons:
1- no new copies of the item are still being manufactured
2- sales of these leftover copies do not generate any money for the band or label
3- the price of the item is usually very different; some 'leftover' items sell much cheaper than they did when first released, others sell for much more.
4- There is no set location to go to get the item, you just have to wait until someone lists it on ebay, a used copy shows up at the local record store, etc.

Your definition of whether an item turns up for sale online less than X times per year defines whether an old item is READILY available. This is different IMO from being COMMERCIALLY available (see reasons 1-4 above). I've seen at least half a dozen copies of Bathory's yellow goat LP for sale this year- is that album still commercially availbale just b/c 6 folks have decided to sell copies within a 6 month period?

Since this thread seems tied to Poisonoise posts, I'm guessing that folks are debating what should and should not be posted therein. This is why I think the difference between 'commercially' and 'readily' available is important. If the album is still being produced and distributed, then sales of the record still (in theory) generate royalties for the band and the label, and thus posting such things in Poisonoise would be questionable as it would potentially steal sales from bands and labels.
However, once an album is only available whenever copies happen to appear randomly on ebay (i.e., no longer "commercially available") then neither the label nor the band is seeing any profits from the sales of those copies. Posting this kind of thing on Poisonoise is not taking money out of anyone's pockets.
Hope i'm not wandering off topic. Some more info about what is being debated among Mods might help focus the discussion a little better.

Most new re-issues are only manufactured in a minimal quantity and after that are no longer produced. So by your terminology, once the say 1000 copies are done being pressed, even though there are several places online where the item can be purchased, it's still not "commercially" available.

In my eyes "commercially" available directly corresponds to what you can purchase off the shelf at you local mega-chain music store.

What is important for me is this:

stormspell wrote:If the label/official distributors sold out, then this album is no longer commercially available.

If the album is no longer pressed and the distribution has stopped, but the official distributors still have copies and they haven't sold out then it's still commercially available.

Avenger- no, by my definition the item is still commercially available after pressing stops so long as 'real' distributors are offering the item for sale, which is similar to what you said about the item being available 'on the shelf'.

Example- Arkeyn Steel presses up 1,000 copies of Dead Calm. While pressing then stops (no more will be made), as long as Arkeyn Steel and other distributors like Stormspell, Shadow Kingsom, and Sentinel Steel are selling copies through their online sites, then Dead Calm is still commercially available IMO.
Eventually, these distributors will sell out and stop offering Dead Calm. At that point, the only ways to get a copy would be to buy a used copy or to find some individual who still has a few copies and offers stuff for sale in the Take it Or Leave It forum. At that point the item is no longer available 'off the shelf' so it is not commercially available IMO

I don't think it's fair to limit commercial availability to titles sold off the shelf in local mega stores. If that's the case, then most metal releases are NEVER commercially available. Arkeyn Steel's Dead Calm would never be carried by Wal Mart or Record Exchange.

Ion- One point of disagreement; if the distributors still have copies but they're not making any effort to distribute them, why do you consider it still commercially available? Some labels/distribs hold onto leftover copies forever b/c there's just no demand for them at the time. For example, Neat Records still had vinyl copies of 'Welcome to Hell' in their warehouse around 1992, yet they weren't being offered for sale to the public, so they were not really available. The remaining copies were eventually all sold to a private dealer who then sold them off.

nightsblood wrote: if the distributors still have copies but they're not making any effort to distribute them, why do you consider it still commercially available?

No, probably not. Those copies must be on sale all the time regardless of whether there is demand or not. 5000 copies in shrink wrap lying in the label's warehouse without being offered for sale to the public doesn't count as ''commercially available''. Besides, this is a thing that you'll probably discover ''later'' and not by time it happens.