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[split from the Törr-thread]

Helm wrote:The eastern european air of mystique certainly makes people from other countries fetishize these releases more. I always found it really funny to read on the internet praise for the greek black metal scene of the early 90s and how it had a certain 'mediterrainian' flare. Such a flare hardly exists and the greek black metal scene of the 90's is 4-5 worthwhile bands.

I cannot understand what this 'mediterrainian' flare is, to my ears the sound that defined the Greek BM scene is a great mixture of heavy/black with an intense epic feeling (well, at least on the trinity Rotting Christ-Necromantia-Varathron which are the most important bands). It is my fave BM scene worldwide and not because i'm Greek, it's simply because it's the style i like the most on BM. Imo there are far more than 4-5 worthwhile bands, but that doesn't mean of course that all of them are in Rotting Christ or Necromantia league.

that exact Heavy Metal-black metal connection is the so-called definition of greek black metal, but I can hear that in Master's Hammer or whatever else from the early second wave, the greeks have no monopoly on this!

I have no idea what the mediterrainian flare is either, I think people are expecting a greek band to sound like that so much, they invent it.

Varathron, early Rotting Christ, Necromantia is the supremely worthwhile trinity of early greek black metal. There's lots and lots of smaller bands of interest, but so are everywhere else, and they mostly copy the Norwegian or French type of BM nowdays.

Helm wrote:that exact Heavy Metal-black metal connection is the so-called definition of greek black metal, but I can hear that in Master's Hammer or whatever else from the early second wave, the greeks have no monopoly on this!

Master's Hammer have done it their way and so have the Greeks. I think it is more intense at the first listen on the Greek bands. For example, Necromantia's "Pretender to the throne" screams Manowar from the first ten seconds, can't remember many other foreign BM bands that their HM influences were so quickly noticeable, so maybe that's one thing that distinguishes the Greek scene from the others...

I guess, but then there's a band like The Chasm, that is ostensibly black metal on their early material that out-heavy-metals anyone that ever picked up a guitar to play a tremolo riff.

Well, Rotting Christ demos have very unique, very raw yet gloomy sound, which you have to respect. Mediteranean flare? Yes, but from pre-Christian or at least pre-Schism era, channelling Orthodox heresy and old cults. Duh!

Edit: is there any reading on old pagan cults which somehow survived and have influences upon "Black schools" in Greece?

no such thing, as there is no Mediterranean anything on old rotting christ demos. The scales used (the usual pentatonics and harmonic minors, along with chromatic accidentals thrown in) are derived from Sodom and Hellhammer, not anything remotely ancient. This really has to stop, heh!

edit: to more accurately answer your question, our knowledge of ancient greek music forms is quite limited and a lot is inferred or invented. A lot of what people think sounds like 'ancient greek music' is basically just eastern-type music. If you want to listen to greek black metal that has anything to do with actual approximations of ancient greek music, Fiendish Nymph/Δαιμόνια Νύμφη are your closest bet, and they are very out of the ordinary. Rotting Christ are not.

I had in mind the atmosphere not the music itself, though imho both are very unique, very Greek. I'm almost certain that they've channeled some very old "energies".

Well if it's enough that the people playing the music are Greek for you to evoke a 'Greek atmosphere' about the music then what can I say, more power to you. When I listen to Rotting Christ, especially early Christ personally, I see a bunch of greeks trying to obscure their greekness, if anything. A band that would want to accentuate their status as Greeks would first of all, use the Greek language - which is extremely fitting for 'occult' type music - and not just for a title of a song here and there. Rotting Christ in their otherwise godly Passage to Arcturo recite poetry in LATIN of all things, in a hilarious Greek accent and everything. Why not just go the full way and sing in Greek while you're at it?

What you don't know but that I know about the Greek metal scene is that there IS almost NO metal with Greek lyrics, you know why? Because the Greeks that play metal are aping the Americans and are ashamed to be 'Greek' when they play their metal. There are exceptions, but this is the state, really. Think of Master's Hammer with their proud Czech or Magnit with their Russian or whatever else. There is no Greek equivalent, it's all badly translated Greek thoughts into English, muddying up the meaning and stripping the identity from the bands.

There is good Greek (black or otherwise) metal, it's just not very 'Greek' at all.

The debut album of Exoristoi is sung in Greek. Musically is good hard 'n' heavy with some nice lyrics, but with a horrible singer. I've been told that Vice Human have also a track sung in Greek which is unreleased though. But, yes, the cases are really really few.

Because the Greeks that play metal are aping the Americans and are ashamed to be 'Greek' when they play their metal

I generally agree, but i believe that it's also the fact that Greek language doesn't fit very well with metallic vocal lines. Well, at least to my ears. I don't know how to explain it properly, it gives me the impression that the song doesn't/couldn't ''flow'' very well on that case...I try to imagine for example Savage Grace's "Bound to be free" sung in Greek and my mind stops. It would be ridiculous. What do you think about it?

Helm, you are probably right, but I still cannot help myself hearing sth more in early Rotting Christ. Let's say they tried to ape, but hadn't succeeded.

Ion Britton, you are trying to hear greek over an already well-known american song. Of course your mind shuts down. If there were to be greek-sang metal, it would decidedly take a different from from what we've known so far, and so much the better for it. Can you imagine Master's Hammer first record with english lyrics on top? I certainly cannot.

Any language fits metal if it is sang with enough conviction and purpose is my opinion. If greek has a hard time with the vocal lines we've known of so far, then it would have to devise other types of vocal lines. Think of how John Arch turned the Bruce-Dickinson-esque type of delivery on its head to suit his particular voice and desire of delivery. Heavy Metal credo: If it doesn't fit, MAKE IT FIT.

About the few cases with greek lyrics, sadly the most prominent one remains Kawir/Κάβειρος . Sadly because of what they stand for, and their quality of music.

I was expecting that kind of answer. Of course, i didn't exactly mean ''take the vocal lines of SG and translate their American English in Greek", i was thinking that even if the guitar parts were supposedly written by a Greek band, the song wouldn't have the same impact on me with the use of Greek language. I simply can't imagine me singing in Greek with such metallic fury that kind of song. What the hell would i sing? Soundwise Greek are not that ''sharp'' and ''flexible'' for these kind of songs and therefore the result will always have its flaws.

If it doesn't fit, MAKE IT FIT: I understand this, but it ain't easy to do it all the time. All languages may fit, but they can't all fit on the same degree, probably this might have to do also with one's taste. Greek language fits on Exoristoi, but it doesn't fit as perfectly as the Polish language does on KAT's case for instance. I believe it is hard to work with Greek language on metal. It works better with punk/hardcore/crusty material, the variations of vocal lines are certainly limited on those styles though. Metallic vocal patterns demand greater abilities imo making it thus even more difficult to write a metal track sung in Greek with much success.

Anyway, i'm not a musician, that's only what my ears tell me and they are the ones i can trust more than anything else as far as music is concerned


EDIT: Helm, may i ask why you eventually chose English for your band? I know you don't fall in the ''aping Americans" category, but i am curious about that choice of yours. Hard to believe that you have a clearer vision and a stronger purpose when using the English language than when using Greek.

This concept is actually starting to make me impatient to hear some savage thrash with a singer singing in Greek. I can tell you that singing about dragons and swords in Greek probably wouldn't gel, but proper Greek mythological themes certainly would. It wouldn't work if you translated the generic medieval fantasy metal lyric in Greek and sang it because obviously, that Greek medieval fantasy is an imitation of an imitation. But if you went straight to the source and wrote a song about the Argonaut campaign for example, I bet it would work well. If the lyricist could write well that is. That's a big thing, a lot of Greek bands can't write a lyric to save their lives so they're just defaulting to English imitation so people will just pass along without noticing anything but the riffs. This is a disservice to anyone's HM in my opinion.

I disagree Greek isn't flexible. It takes balls to write a good Greek poem, but it takes considerably less balls to write a good metal lyric in Greek, because the music helps substantiate the point. I translated 'Orphan Gypsy' by Fates Warning to Greek a few days ago because my grandmother was asking me about HM and what it means and my explanation sort of ran on for more than it should, so I decided showing is better than telling. The lyric translated fine in my opinion, through some choices of words didn't flow, I'm sure with more than 10 minutes put into it the text could have stood in Greek without referencing the original. It's not that it is impossible, it is that almost nobody is trying. The reason is simple: the bands are afraid that they'd sound like rednecks, hillbillies, βλάχοι and that the average metal fan would laugh at them (which is quite probable). The Greek metal musician has no pride in his ethnicity (that is, without going the full way to being a full-blown idiot racist) so they keep to the established formula. They can write awesome riffs or songs sometimes, but tell me, when was the last time you listened to a Greek metal song where the lyric was as strong as the music? I don't know why Polish or Russian or Czech bands have the necessary pride and balls to write in their own language and we don't, I'm open to suggestions.

I believe it is hard to work with Greek language on metal.

It definitely is, but why aren't people even trying?

I write some lyrics in English for the clear reason that I often think in English. My own band has an equal amount of Greek and English lyrics. The reasons for using one or the other fall mainly on the particular whim at the time of writing than anything else, as both lyricists in the group have an adequate command of both languages (one is also a professional translator).

I don't understand perfectly the Greek medieval fantasy thing. I can see how it could not work when you try to find the Greek word for "Excalibur", but i can't understand why it should necessary fail when you use the word "σπαθί" and "μαγεία" instead of "sword" and "sorcery". The concept of the Argonaut campaign is closer to the Greek band, but i can't understand why it should work better soundwise. Even the most perfect lyrics are lost without the suitable vocal lines.

Can you please explain this a bit more:

It wouldn't work if you translated the generic medieval fantasy metal lyric in Greek and sang it because obviously, that Greek medieval fantasy is an imitation of an imitation.But if you went straight to the source and wrote a song about the Argonaut campaign for example, I bet it would work well.

It's all about a good translation that is in the spirit of the original, i don't see how certain themes wouldn't work if and when translating them properly. As i said it's the combination of good and suitable vocal patterns with good lyrics that counts.

This is the most important part i think:

If the lyricist could write well that is

Without him, it is the same whether as Greek you choose to write about Thermopyles or Valhalla.

Anyway, what i'm saying is that even with a strong lyricist there are certain problems with the use of Greek in metal. When i said that Greek isn't flexible i didn;t mean that it is not flexible generally. I meant that it is not flexible with Metal vocal lines, at least on genres like power metal. The combination of Speed + Metal + Melody + Greek can't work for me. On savage thrash maybe it would work better, but again i believe not with terrific results.

They can write awesome riffs or songs sometimes, but tell me, when was the last time you listened to a Greek metal song where the lyric was as strong as the music?

Honestly, the lyrics of Exoristoi on their first LP are sometimes stronger than the music. But even on that case, some of the melodies don't flow perfectly, i always hear parts that i say "it doesn't fit here". All these are subjective of course.

Now why nobody tried seriously to write in Greek, i'm afraid that after we exclude the bands that aped, we should ask the bands that wanted to do it, but in the end they didn't. Perhaps some of them tried, but the result was below their expectations, i don't know. However, i agree that the majority didn't even try it because of the fear of being laughable in their redneck-sounding way. It's weird though, because as Greeks we have much pride on many issues, i don't why we failed showing it in heavy metal (i'm talking about the healthy kind of pride, not the idiotic and over-the-top type of pride of a racist)

Hm about the medieval fantasy thing. The Greek language naturally has its own aesthetic connotations. It carries the history of the people in it and as such, I personally would be put off by a HM band using it to paint tales of heroic middle-ages-european heroes slaying Tolkeinesque dragons and such. I can see someone really talented making it work, but most of the time I'd be '...what?'. Words carry in them meanings and their etymology can clash, or not clash, with a given subject matter. If you've read Tolkein and seen goblins being translated as τελώνια and you kinda flinched when you did, you can get what I mean.

On the other hand the greek language is very well suited for stories of greek-mythological feats for obvious reasons.

Without him, it is the same whether as Greek you choose to write about Thermopyles or Valhalla.

Sure, but we're talking about a Greek metal scene that is 100% writing in English. From them, let's say 3% are able lyricists (I fear I'm not exaggerating here), why couldn't 1% of them try their hand at their mother tongue?

Honestly, the lyrics of Exoristoi on their first LP are sometimes stronger than the music. But even on that case, some of the melodies don't flow perfectly, i always hear parts that i say "it doesn't fit here". All these are subjective of course.

Hehe, 30 years of HM and there's just Exoristoi to talk about. And Exoristoi have been made fun of in so many occasions by greek HM listeners for singing in Greek (and other lower stuff like Katis' diminishing hairline or whatever). Another good attempt was by the Greek death metal band Godless, who did two videoclips of two of their songs that were in Greek (yes, brutal deep, guttural vocals) and the result was POWERFUL for me, much more powerful than any run-of-the-mill English-writing Greek death metal band. It helps that Godless are (were? I can't find any traces of them on-line anymore) able in composition and as lyricists, of course. For me their experiment with Greek lyrics solidified my belief that this should be explored even more and that it hasn't in 30 years only speaks volumes of how guilty Greeks feel about being Greek in the context of HM.

Now why nobody tried seriously to write in Greek, i'm afraid that after we exclude the bands that aped, we should ask the bands that wanted to do it, but in the end they didn't.

If I ever take interviews of Greek bands I'll definitely be asking.