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Do we sometimes fall in love with the historical value?

Posted: Fri May 02, 2008 3:24 pm
by Helm
...of a record, and not its strict musical value? Can the two be strictly separated for people like us anyway? Case in point: the Nigro Mantia demo. I absolutely adore it, I play it all the time, I am falling into the oldschool pattern of learning-the-lyrics-without-a-lyrics-sheet, I've quoted "INSANITY? INFINITY!" twice this week at random occassions, the works. I love this. I'm pretty certain I wouldn't love or understand it 10 years ago if I heard it, though! Why do I love it as much I do?

Of course the songs are good, the riffs are great, the vocals distinctive and so on, but it's not enough. This isn't better than Mercyful Fate or Manilla Road (which it heavily references), I love it also because it came out in 1984 and it predates a type of music that would later be popularised further my the likes of Manilla Road and Mercyful Fate! In my understanding of HM history, this plays a big part! It's completely obscure, underground and this gives it a strange sense of allure. This is *not* the same as when you find an obscure record which is boring or outright sucks but you praise it just to appear oldschool and kickass, I genuinely enjoy the Nigro Mantia demo, yet not in the same way that I enjoy the landmark HM records that made me a metalhead to begin with! There is a third, somehow less definitive state.

I see this effect a lot on 'cult music' circles. People here often say such and such band is better than Iron Maiden or whatnot, whereas the same band they're talking about is often highly derivative of Iron Maiden directly and the band-members would die of embarassment if you told them they're better than them. It is amazing how the awareness of 'Iron Maiden' is required to understand why this smaller, obscure band is 'better than Iron Maiden'! Whereas not pointless, one misses out on why Nigro Mantia are as important as they if they listen to them without any HM History knowledge. In some ways I think this is the definition of obscure Heavy Metal: it is essentially derivative of mainstream Heavy Metal but for that same reason sometimes alluring in its variation, compelling in its historical implication.

Am I on the right track? Isn't this sorta why we keep digging in the underground, finding variations of the form that other people with a more passing interest in HM don't see anything in? It's not just the need for 'more riffs', it's the need of a more complete historical picture of HM on the whole I think, that drives this quest. It drives Corroseum (the site) in its encyclopedic structure of 'Swedish 7''s' and the like, I certainly think so. Think about how many times in your lives you've thought things like "I want to listen to, and make a database of, of all the demos by bands from my country" and such. The true lovers of obscure Heavy Metal are its lovers because of the history of this music on the whole, not for any one band in particular.

Posted: Fri May 02, 2008 4:34 pm
by nightsblood
I think you've got a good point. In general, 3 kinds of fans get into 'obscure' metal.
1- Completists who get everything in the genre.
2- Long-time metal fans who have heard the 'known' bands like Iron maiden, Manilla Road, etc for years and are wanting to hear some 'variations' on the themes.
3- the newbie fan who goes straight for the obscure stuff. Often this is just to appear 'kvlt' or whatever, though not always. I started getting into some obscure metal before i had heard alot of the staples (e.g., I think I heard the Damascus EP before I heard a full Slayer album, and I owned the Desolation Angels LP before ever hearing a note of Manilla Road or Voivod) although in my case appearing 'kvlt' had nothing to do with it; I lived in the middle of nowhere, so if I wanted to come across all hardcore all I needed to do was listen to iron Maiden and Slayer :lol: I got into obscure bands relatively fast mainly becuase I grew up listening to lots of obsucre 'oldies' music, so I already knew that 'small-time' acts could often be just as enjoyable as the mainstream bands.

Re: Do we sometimes fall in love with the historical value?

Posted: Fri May 02, 2008 10:55 pm
by DaN
Helm wrote:...of a record, and not its strict musical value? Can the two be strictly separated for people like us anyway? Case in point: the Nigro Mantia demo. I absolutely adore it, I play it all the time, I am falling into the oldschool pattern of learning-the-lyrics-without-a-lyrics-sheet, I've quoted "INSANITY? INFINITY!" twice this week at random occassions, the works. I love this. I'm pretty certain I wouldn't love or understand it 10 years ago if I heard it, though! Why do I love it as much I do?

Of course the songs are good, the riffs are great, the vocals distinctive and so on, but it's not enough. This isn't better than Mercyful Fate or Manilla Road (which it heavily references), I love it also because it came out in 1984 and it predates a type of music that would later be popularised further my the likes of Manilla Road and Mercyful Fate! In my understanding of HM history, this plays a big part! It's completely obscure, underground and this gives it a strange sense of allure. This is *not* the same as when you find an obscure record which is boring or outright sucks but you praise it just to appear oldschool and kickass, I genuinely enjoy the Nigro Mantia demo, yet not in the same way that I enjoy the landmark HM records that made me a metalhead to begin with! There is a third, somehow less definitive state.

I see this effect a lot on 'cult music' circles. People here often say such and such band is better than Iron Maiden or whatnot, whereas the same band they're talking about is often highly derivative of Iron Maiden directly and the band-members would die of embarassment if you told them they're better than them. It is amazing how the awareness of 'Iron Maiden' is required to understand why this smaller, obscure band is 'better than Iron Maiden'! Whereas not pointless, one misses out on why Nigro Mantia are as important as they if they listen to them without any HM History knowledge. In some ways I think this is the definition of obscure Heavy Metal: it is essentially derivative of mainstream Heavy Metal but for that same reason sometimes alluring in its variation, compelling in its historical implication.

Am I on the right track? Isn't this sorta why we keep digging in the underground, finding variations of the form that other people with a more passing interest in HM don't see anything in? It's not just the need for 'more riffs', it's the need of a more complete historical picture of HM on the whole I think, that drives this quest. It drives Corroseum (the site) in its encyclopedic structure of 'Swedish 7''s' and the like, I certainly think so. Think about how many times in your lives you've thought things like "I want to listen to, and make a database of, of all the demos by bands from my country" and such. The true lovers of obscure Heavy Metal are its lovers because of the history of this music on the whole, not for any one band in particular.
You've certainly put the finger on a subject I've wanted bring up for a long time but didn't know quite how formulate..

I'm the first one to admit that my musical preferences are anything than subjective. Whenever I hear a "new"/(old) band my first 2 questions are always: Where are they from? When was this recorded? I think it has to do with the fact that there's so much merely decent/listenable Metal recorded through history that you eventually need to come up with some other "filters" to discern what bands/recordings you should waste your time and energy on. Originality and being ahead-of-their-time would be the most important of these filters in my case.

Imo music is more than mere notes, it's ideas, passion and fortitude! There's a whole "nonsubgenre" of old Metal out there that never got anywhere merely because of petty "flaws" like a fucked up production, over-the-top vocals, the odd out-of-place riff or just shitty management. While they might not have been The Lost Competitors Of IRON MAIDEN, they did provide that special spice and X-factor to the Heavy Metal legacy I so often miss in 95% of all the new Old School acts, as talented and in-the-know as they may be.

Concerning the new generation of True Metalheads and their obsession with cult/obscure bands I don't think one should be too quick to write them off as just trying to impress and fit in with "Ze Olde Untergrunt Elite". After all, bands like HELL, PAGAN ALTAR, MAGNIT/CREDO or GOTHAM CITY always had the heads-up on generic, easy-to-find, bargain-bin acts like BATTLEAXE, FAITHFUL BREATH, ARMOURED SAINT etc.. I'm just happy as a clam that these truly original, innovative, fantastic songwriters finally get the attention they always deserved. That's really one of the greatest things with the internet - when all works of art are equally available it can indeed work as The Great Equalizer.

Re: Do we sometimes fall in love with the historical value?

Posted: Sat May 03, 2008 3:33 am
by Keir
Helm wrote:Am I on the right track?
Absolutely.

Up until 3 or 4 years ago, I was perfectly content listening to whatever was current. For a while I was listening to a lot of doomdeath and gothic metal and then I was really into power metal. Once I got tired of that, I did what I always do when I'm bored with the current state of metal which is to go back to the classics. Maiden, Priest, Scorpions... but this time something different happened. I found my Metal Massacre VII CD that I hadn't listened to in a long time (don't even know why I had it actually, I think I only listened to it once) and gave it a listen. This time when I listened to it I didn't hear a bunch of sloppy, poorly produced Slayer wannabes. Instead I heard bands who were excited about metal and knew they would never make it big but they didn't care. It was exactly that "X-factor" that Dan talks about.

From there, I started digging out all my old tapes I might not have listened to in a while (especially compilations), researching obscure bands online, and of course I found this place. :D

Posted: Sat May 03, 2008 6:24 am
by Helm
I'm glad my rambling on the first post communicated something concrete because I wasn't sure it would. I've been thinking about this issue a lot lately and didn't know how to put it to words.

nightsblood: "2- Long-time metal fans who have heard the 'known' bands like Iron maiden, Manilla Road, etc for years and are wanting to hear some 'variations' on the themes."

Also I think people with long and extensive historical knowledge of HM are researching the underground heavily to find bands that aren't so "taken". What do I mean? I mean, you can't really easily make a personal connection with Iron Maiden right now, can you? There are sworn maidenheads of course, but I mean, they're sort of a subcultural icon right now, it's not really distinctive to be their number 1 fan. It's like going to a well-known whore. So since I posit HM makes people long for personal contact with the music and culture we keep searching for the smaller, talented bands, we research them and we make them ours, so to speak. I for example, have heavily researched Technothrash as some of you know in this forum. Right now, sincerily, I don't think there are a lot of people worldwide with a more historically accurate knowledge of that particular dead subgenre. What do I gain? Do I gain any useful cultural skill in having this knowledge? No. I gain intimacy with a type of music that you were always ment to be intimate with! Not just listen to Energetic Disassembly once every year and go "yeah, that's a cool riff right there" and that's it!
I started getting into some obscure metal before i had heard alot of the staples
In a way, we all do this. We listen to NWOBHM for example, without having listened to 70's dino heavy metal (and progressive rock! and punk!) as much as we should to understand how it happened. I never get all high and mighty on people when they haven't listenened to the mandatory stuff before going for the obscurita. I just go "!!! YOU HAVE TO LISTEN TO THIS" because I am excited about how much a person that likes say, Solitude Aeternus is going to love Epicus Doomicus Metallicus. How much they're going to appreciate it. We come on this forum and other forums, to urge other people that are worthwhile, to become intimate with the culture that we are intimate with. To share the lasting merits of this music so we don't feel alone in their enjoyment and so they aren't forgotten through time, because you don't do that to your friends, do you? Let them be forgotten? It's really strange! Having a real, strong love for HM carries emotional obligations that have strong friendship and religious overtones. Don't also most of the really into it HM people eventually pick up instruments and make their own stuff? This is why HM will never die. It encourages hands-on, intimate affection for the form, it is not "far away". And when a mainstream act sounds far away and professional now (Manowar) it's clumbsier, obscurer, ultimately more human counterpart sounds RIGHT THERE (Killen).
Originality and being ahead-of-their-time would be the most important of these filters in my case.
+
Imo music is more than mere notes, it's ideas, passion and fortitude
Passion, vision, honesty. I agree 100%. These are all I need. You can have all the killer riffs in the world but if you don't have a vision, if you don't play with conviction, and if you don't put your heart on your sleeve, you're just a glorified hard rock band playing for pussy and money.

It is this promise of this integrity that made us metalheads, before we were old and wise enough to see how Metallica or Iron Maiden might not be the champions of it. Then we look at others just like ourselves that were inspired by the big bands to make their smaller ones, the ones without a prayer to get big, to make money, to score pussy with their music, that fulfill the promise that the form makes. They sometimes fail to deliver, sometimes not.
I so often miss in 95% of all the new Old School acts, as talented and in-the-know as they may be.
A lot of the retro revival copies the form without any of the agressive, rebelious and individualistic spirit that used to drive it before. How Heavy Metal it is to copy 100% what Running Wild did? Not much!
That's really one of the greatest things with the internet - when all works of art are equally available it can indeed work as The Great Equalizer.
I absolutely love how it also helps with the overpriced obscure LPs that I'd never pay 200 dollars for. No record should go for 200, 500, 1000 dollars. The internet lets everybody hear the music for its relative value without putting a price on it and this will only help HM in the long run.
This time when I listened to it I didn't hear a bunch of sloppy, poorly produced Slayer wannabes.
I know this exact feeling! I had "Melissa" by Mercyful Fate and "Crystal Logic" by Manilla Road for years before they suddenly clicked. I was brought up on bay area thrash, and german power/speed so when as I child I looked back into Fate and Manilla Road I couldn't understand what it was that people found in them! I couldn't hear the ethos, I heard bad productions and simple songs with dreaded rock 'n roll parts! Not robust, not HEAVY AND CRUSHING, weird, fuzzy guitar distortion, nasal singers, everything good about these bands I failed to appreciate and saw as bad! As I grew and my understanding of HM widened and sharpened, suddenly one day I played Melissa and went "holy shit, this is a masterpiece. EVERYTHING is in its right place, I wouldn't change a single bit!". Same with Crystal Logic. I fetishized these records, became intimate with them, memorised every change and lyric. I talked with myself on why this is great music. And finally I realised that I need more, more knowledge and more inspiration, so I turned to obscura as most of us. The valuable relationship with HM is the one that takes these years to cultivate, for the form to come close enough to let the content flow.

Posted: Sat May 03, 2008 7:28 am
by The Erlking
Well I'll have to explain my personality a little here.
When I like or get interested about something I wanna know everything that's fascinating and great about it. I wanna get down to it's roots and see how everything works and I gotta find out how things have evolved since then.

I haven't been listening to HM and it's subgenres that long. Just few years maybe. I listened to some when I was a kid and then had a long break until I found hard rock (+ few HM bands) but it didn't take long to move on to Heavy Metal from that point and I even got really into metal by accidentally listening to a band that's kinda common but obscure to most metalheads in west. Helm has a point here but I also have to say that I started everything just for hunger of good HM. Some of it was common and some of it was obscure. I've always disliked most of the modern stuff and sticked to the 80s and 70s (even more than nowadays) and I never liked gothic stuff, groove metal or symphonic black metal etc. I just loved the sound of eighties heavy metal. So honest, pure, powerful, heavy and fatal.

Still especially nowadays I'm very interested about where a band comes from. What year did they form / release debut etc. and it has a lot to do with what Helm and others have pointed out.

Edit. I didn't like Manilla Road when I heard them the first time. I think it was during the time when I had just got into HM. I don't usually have much problems with original/weird vocals but at the time I listened to the album (I think it was crystal logic) just once and turned away from them because of singing style. :roll:
I don't think I've had problems with "weird" since that. Got very smoothly into the voices of King Diamond, Tim Baker and that guy from Solar Eagle for example.

Posted: Sat May 03, 2008 9:47 am
by tomas
I listened to metal between the age of 12 and 18. Then I suddenly got sick of it. I also lost touch with a few people that I shared my love for metal with, and a local radioshow was thrown off the air.

I was searching for other good music everywhere I could find it. After two or three years, without any particular reason, I started digging through my old tapes and CDs. I took my recordplayer to Ghent (where I was studying) and started playing those old Maiden and Warlord LPs again. Back then, I also got in touch with the guy who used to host the radioshow I just mentioned. He tought me a lot about metal and I borrowed a lot of his LPs, each week he gave me some more obscure LPs and I came to the conclusion that those rather unknown bands are just as passionate/aggressive/fast/... as all the well known bands, or even more.

The only thing I took some time to get into was old heavy metal. Although I loved Crystal Logic the first time I heard it, it took me a while to get into Tyrant (US), ... I was more into thrash (I still am) and doom.

Now, I tend to use the same filter DaN uses. I always want to know when it was recorded, where the band is from, how much they released. Obscure or demo-only bands have a special appeal. And the feeling you get when you hear they recorded some really awesome metal is great, like you discovered a long lost treasure. And I think that's why we keep digging through metal history to find these old, lost and forgotten recordings.

Posted: Sat May 03, 2008 12:46 pm
by Nightlock
WARNING: most of my ideas and believes and probably what I'll discuss in this post have for the most part been discussed already. I feel I need to say something to at least justify self-guilt of not earlier.

First I'll start by saying if I was told to pick either five obscure bands or five big name bands to spend the rest of my life listening to...The answer would straigth away be Judas Priest, Running Wild, Accept, Riot, Thin Lizzy big bands will always win (I'm going with nightsblood's fan "2" type for myself but I think most self respecting metalheads would) . Maybe they're big for a reason? no I don't fully believe the "big bands are big because of the quality of their music" theory. The only soundproof reason I can think of is those afore mentioned bands have something pretty special and innovative and a wide discography of this high quality music.

I'll now concur with EVERYTHING Dan has said but comment on the last paragraph written. It does frustrate me sometimes with the "new generation of True Metalheads and their obsession with cult/obscure bands" or overnight collectors as I've recently been referring to them as in conversations. Things like; how they sometimes deny music they only recently loved (But I suppose music tastes/opinions can change?), collect super obscure 7" singles from ig: Sweden without fully realizing the greatness of bands that live in a purgatory of in between being mainstream big name and being underground favourites etc. These kind of traits all though they don't apply to all new fans of collecting obscure metal do apply to a lot. I'm not quite really sure why it annoys me and admit my reasons may be immature and not enlightened to the "full picture" as Dan expresses in his last paragraph. I can't deny my true feelings though. Maybe this is also linked to how I AM willing to pay top dollar for collecting items rather than just downloading all my music. It's all connected in some way but now I'm just going to blame and try to justify everything with having high functioning autism. :P

Please reply to my last paragraph if need me to elaborate on any ramblings. :)

EDIT: I don't really accept or respect the type "3" metal fan.

Posted: Sat May 03, 2008 3:24 pm
by The Knell
I am digging the "casual" bands and records along with those obscure gems, 50/50. I do not go for being "cult", I just love the exotic way e.g. japanese played their metal, or the dirty and sick southamerican extreme metal, or the wicked and obscure east european stuff, . The foreign regions apart from the usual UK/US and Western Europe have sometimes a special way to deliver the metal and I find this very pleasuring and interesting to listen to.
I have to admit that I am missing all those regular available records, because I was always thinking "Oh this record is rare, so you have to go for it. The easily available stuff you can get in a bundle for cheap or so", and I 'm rather trading for rare stuff than for multiple not rare stuff. That's dumb because listening to those mighty classics as Show No Mercy on shitty CDR is not very enjoyable and let me feel like a poseur ...

Posted: Sat May 03, 2008 10:27 pm
by The Sentinel
Interesting thread. I don't know what it is with those tiny obscure bands. I worship the Lord Ryur 7" knowing they are nowhere near Maiden's Killers LP (IMO) BUT why is it so goddamn enjoyable then? I think the main reason is that those bands are honest to the bone with their music. Their purpose is to MAKE MUSIC and nothing else and you can hear the passion througout the record or demo. The atmosphere and "feeling" in a record are far more important then playing your instruments. For instance the Genocidio MLP is godlike IMO mainly because of that freakin' evil atmosphere while the playing isn't that marvelous, but I really can never part with this one; it's something special; an unhealthy thing that enters your brain and assaults your mind in a good way. "Bigger Names" records don't do that with me; they give me a good feeling (like a good Maiden record) but those little unknown great bands can drive me beyond sanity. But in the end it's all great music, aahhh, it's difficult.

Posted: Mon May 05, 2008 9:08 am
by JonahQuizz
The Sentinel wrote:Interesting thread. I don't know what it is with those tiny obscure bands. I worship the Lord Ryur 7" knowing they are nowhere near Maiden's Killers LP (IMO) BUT why is it so goddamn enjoyable then? I think the main reason is that those bands are honest to the bone with their music. Their purpose is to MAKE MUSIC and nothing else and you can hear the passion througout the record or demo. The atmosphere and "feeling" in a record are far more important then playing your instruments. For instance the Genocidio MLP is godlike IMO mainly because of that freakin' evil atmosphere while the playing isn't that marvelous, but I really can never part with this one; it's something special; an unhealthy thing that enters your brain and assaults your mind in a good way. "Bigger Names" records don't do that with me; they give me a good feeling (like a good Maiden record) but those little unknown great bands can drive me beyond sanity. But in the end it's all great music, aahhh, it's difficult.
This is a great response! I feel exactly the same. Offcourse these small bands isn't as good musically as Iron Maiden (and I will even use the same example as you did 'cause Killers is probably the absolute best album of all times) but they blow my mind anyway.

As an add of my own I have to say that I can't see why people shall get pissed on other guys 'cause they don't like music that you want them too. Why can't just everybody listen to what they enjoy whatever it is?

Posted: Mon May 05, 2008 10:37 am
by GJ
How do you look upon "bands" like Exorcist or Piledriver and such in these aspects? Personally I think that Nightmare Theater is as good as or even better than much of the stuff Virgin Steele has done (before and after). But I also remember being really dissapointed when I first realized that this was not a product of passion and devotion but more of a piss-take on thrash/speed/black metal with intentions to not only making some money but also sort of prove that "anyone" can make a "decent" thrash/speed/black metal album. I hope that I'm not making a fool out of myself here, not having the actual facts before me - I'm well aware of that I may be totally wrong about this... Anyhow I still think of the album as a work of (unintentional) genius.

The question is: Can "metalploitation" projects be accepted as pieces of "good" art? Not only in ways of being so bad that it's good but also sometimes being (be it unintentionally) good and just that. Can the lack of passion and honesty from the artist's side be compensated by the passionate listener's freedom to interpret?

Sorry for bad language - hope you can make some sense out of this anyway. I'm really not used to discuss thoughts like this - got to practise though...

Posted: Mon May 05, 2008 10:46 am
by Helm
It's a gray subject, isn't it? In a way, it's possible that some people can only express their guilty pleasure for let's say, speed/black metal by making an ironic postmodern band and dressing it up as social commentary. Sometimes it seems the material is so strong they emerge more genuine than fake. Generally I dislike such projects on principle though.

I have no trouble distancing myself from great riffs and songs if the band seems insincere, personally. Irony and self-awareness is anathema in HM for me. There's too much intentfully great HM out there for me to grasping at straws in reinterpretation of black as white.

Posted: Mon May 05, 2008 12:28 pm
by nabel
Interesting and difficult subject!

Around when I was about 20 (9 years ago) I suddenly started to buy little more obscure stuff. I don't know really know why, well I got new friends who already had more knowledge and I started to check out bands they recommended. And I have always loved to explore history!
Back in teen years I used to get into new thrash bands by going through thank list of some record and when I had money saved enought to go Helsinki and 2hand stores I had names in my memory and if I found something (and with cool cover of course :wink: ) I bought it.
So exploring unknown (to me) bands has never been a problem, friends, explosion of internet (got connection in my work back then) and hunger for new music helped me.

But just for historical value? It can trigger my interest but it won't help if the music does not do anything for me.
So yeah, like nightsblood put it, I'm not a completist I'm more into hearing interesting stuff. And that does count all those more mainstream classics my collection is still missing...

Posted: Tue May 06, 2008 12:54 pm
by voidghast
I personally think a good chunk of the obscure stuff is completely awesome. The fact that it's old and lost in the past makes it more exciting to me because I wasn't even old enough(or born)at the time some of these records were coming out. It adds to the fantasy element of metal which is already there. I have a very romanticized idea of 80's metal while realistically knowing it had it's flaws and was full of bullshit mediocre bands looking to make a buck. Certain "scenes" or countries posses a mystery about them which makes me even more excited and interested.
I have always devoted a lot of time to music because it's my favorite thing and I spend almost all my time alone(unless I am working). I like to learn about bands,reading a description that really gets me excited to hear the record. Seeing scans of the album art and wanting to acquire the record and of course(if it's one of those lost 'gems')hearing the album and realizing it blows away 80% of modern metal. Could a tiny bit of that have to do with the fact that it's old? Yes! Definitely! I think the pure forms of metal are obviously the best. I love the Manilla Road albums before they kind of "knew the rules" relating to heavy metal. Old and early black metal of the 2nd wave when it's almost as if the bands were figuring out what "black metal" was as they were recording albums. Albums like those will never be made again in heavy metal,black metal,death or doom. Of course a modern band can draw on that "amateur" feeling I suppose but it's not the same thing.