Early Black Metal - what were the bands?

[The Knell]

Exorcist : Nightmare Theatre
mostly very black metal alike vocals and heavy satanic imagery , even if it was only a studio sideproject for 1 album

[deathster]

Why cut-off with 1986? I think Black Metal 1987-1989 was/is very interesting. At that time it was extremely uncool to be satanic. It was trend to play black metal in 1984-85, in 1987 many old satanic death-heads turned into techno thrash. Besides, underground black (or death) metal (in demo level) in 1987-89 is what we can hear in early 90s black metal albums (rough approximation).

[omen of hate]

German bands SATAN'S PHARYNX (1984), HELL, DARK SATAN and MAYHEM (1985-1986)

[metalmaster]

I said that "you may not like Norwegian black metal and what it did to your precious sound", not "you may not like Norwegian black metal."
Anyway, to continue to assert that everything in the Norwegian black metal sphere had already been done by Quorthon is ridiculous. There are so many elements to be found in Transilvanian Hunger, De Mysteriis Dom Sathanas, Hvis lyset tar oss, Nattens Madrigal, Pure Holocaust, Vikingligr Veldi, and In the Nightside Eclipse that Quorthon hadn't even touched upon that I really can't even take your comment seriously. Your reductionist philosophy is merely an attempt to trivialize the importance of an artistic movement in the genre that you don't seem to find favorable, and that's really all it amounts to.

To say that Burzum is just a retread of The Return... because you heard "War", meanwhile dismissing "Burzum", "Det som engang var", "Snu Mikrokosmos Tegn", and My Journey to the Stars" shows what your intention is, and that is to dismiss out of hand the innovation that bands like Burzum actually brought to the table that went beyond what Quorthon or anybody before them had done. Giving examples of songs that don't have a standard chorus utterly misses the point, and accusing me of not being familiar with Bathory's material is a waste of both of our time, as does insinuating that I and others are merely "impressionable guys". Of course Quorthon had some influence on the Norwegian scene. He had an influence on just about all 'extreme' metal that came after him. But to be so obtusely reductionist about it is dishonest.

The first officially releases Norwegian black metal album was A Blaze in the Northern Sky, by the way, though admittedly the archetype that Darkthrone was to be known for was developed further on Under a Funeral Moon and epitomized on Transilvanian Hunger. Diabolical Fullmoon Mysticism is also much more related to Bathory than is Pure Holocaust. Perhaps the most noteworthy element of Norwegian black metal is not their homogeneity, as you imply, but rather their heterogeneity. Each of the forerunners of the movement had their own individual visions and articulated them in different ways. You cannot generalize that they all were Satanic, Pagan/Asatru/Odinist, Fascist, or any other ideology. In fact, NONE of the forerunners in any way expressed fascism or racism in their music, and I would like for you to attempt to contradict me. Some, like Vikernes, are openly racist, but it does not reflect in their music. There was minimal reference to Satan or Satanism in their lyrics as well, the primary exception being Emperor. Amusingly, there is not even a single reference to Norse religion/myth in the entirety of Burzum's seminal works.

As far as side projects go, how is that relevant to their black metal work? Neptune Towers was an ambient project. Mortiis' project was the result of his loss of interest in black metal. Thou Shalt Suffer was a death metal band that largely pre-dated the black metal scene, its members later forming Emperor and Ildjarn, much like members of Old Funeral later forming the bands Burzum, Immortal, and Hades. It's no secret that most of the notable Norwegian black metal musicians started out playing death metal, as is most evident in Soulside Journey. Again, none of this has to do with the discussion on Norwegian black metal that we're holding right now. Burzum was not a purely metal band, as he delved into ambient on occasion (Channeling the Power of Souls into a New God, Han Som Reiste, Tomhet, etc.), but other than that, there is virtually no crossover.

I have no idea what youa re referring to when mention "your precious sound". Can you explain please?

I didnt mention that everything done by those norwegians were done already by Quorthon. I said they ripped off Bathory in many aspects. Read well, please. I didnt mention they were a carbon copy. The took the basis and the main aspects to do their music, and that do not count, in my opinion, to magnify everything, and take it to the level of -in your words-:THE first and largely ONLY MAJOR shift in sound in metal's history. I certainly cant take that seriously.
... and nothing born spontaneously, like Bathory came form something.The norwegians come from the Bathory basis, mainly
...and "war" sounds more of the first Bathory album than that of "the return.."
...and in that case Immortal's first ep is the first BM opus from Norway, no darkthrones who released the album at the same year than immortal.
...and could you tell me which innovation from Christian Vikernes are you talking about? He used those high pitched screams (in the case of Vikerness sound like an old lady shouting), noisy guitars, bad production (on porpuse), the make up, dark/occult themes and then nordic ones, those "ambient" tracks which are very much like the intros like "Nocturnal obesissance" or "Revelation fo Doom". all this was done by Quorthon before. Monotony is not innovation in my opinion. and not to mention that he was a solo project liek Bathory and even his merchandise sheet was a copy of the Bathory's fisrt album...
...and reducting everything by saying that they ripped off Bathory is not dishonest mr morality, it is a fact.
...and about facism amd racism, errr didnt vargy mentioned that he wanted to be the dictator of scandinavian and then he used that -embarrasing- hitler-like look? Didnt he say shit about jews and blacks and latins and even asians & southern europeans? Is not that racism? And didnt Euronymous loved and supported so much extreme communism, a way of fascism?? I think Dark throne mentioned something like Norsk arisk black metal, which as Fenriz menioned, was against jew makeing money out of black metal (as if the arians didnt do that as well)... Satyricon...hmm I remember something... Up the North, down the south. It was not a poetic figure of course not even a geografic reference. It was no necessary to include that in lyrics of songs, but to do it throught interviews and even pics is enough to consider a facist a facist in my opinion. Also this guy Mortiis had his moments.
...and it is funny to know that one can play Black metal with no references to satan or the dark side or whatever but norse gods and trolls and such mythologic beings, which, always fight agains eveil and darkness, arent they? what the Norwegians play(ed) perhaps can be better named nordic metal or forest metal or something as they do not refer to satan or the forces of darkness or evil. I consider Mayhe, black metal... even the first Burzum's and some darkthone... and other minor bands. Emperor not much, Immortal either, Thorns nop-

...and to deny the apportation of many many bands before those from norway, is, truly dishonest from yoru side. there were Black Metal long before norwegians all around the world, the only thing is that they didnt have all this circus around about murders, arsons, etc, which, of course, helped a lot to make popular BM in Norge and then came lots of bands which also inspired bands from other countries, with no doubt.
Without this media help and sensationalism, BM up there would have been not more popular, with all lights over, like the Greeks of Italians or the USA. I can even dare to say that there were a Greek Black metal sound, a Italian BM sound, an Asian and south American BM sound... all of them before the ones from Norge-
...and I didnt insinuated that you are a impressionable guy, I actually stated that, otherwise I cant understand such a obssession about worshipping norwegians, reaching close to fanatism. Seriously only younger guys mention that norwegians created black metal, while those veterans simple deny that at the light fo the facts. Some funny gusy even state that Venom was not Black Metal...
if you want to continue with this, PM, and we can let the members of this honorable ( ) forum continue with the topic

[metalmaster]

Exorcist : Nightmare Theatre
mostly very black metal alike vocals and heavy satanic imagery , even if it was only a studio sideproject for 1 album

and not to mention the lyrics were antisatanic!

[Piotr Sargnagel]

I always thought that the monotony in Norwegian BM came from VON?

[The Knell]

Exorcist : Nightmare Theatre
mostly very black metal alike vocals and heavy satanic imagery , even if it was only a studio sideproject for 1 album

and not to mention the lyrics were antisatanic!

???

give me a quote or two

[MEXDefenderOfSteel]

Exorcist : Nightmare Theatre
mostly very black metal alike vocals and heavy satanic imagery , even if it was only a studio sideproject for 1 album

and not to mention the lyrics were antisatanic!

???

give me a quote or two

yes please "padrino"

[DMR]

Rich, that 1980-86 list is solid, I'm brainstorming to think of bands missing.

I think there's a really obvious one missing.... Slayer!

[Dodens Grav]

Rich, that 1980-86 list is solid, I'm brainstorming to think of bands missing.

I think there's a really obvious one missing.... Slayer!

Slayer's not on the list? Well, it certainly should be.

@metalmaster: No, I'm not going to continue this because it doesn't seem like you're even paying attention to what I'm saying. How you can listen to "Hvis lyset tar oss" and say "this basically sounds like a Bathory ripoff, there's nothing new or interesting here" is utterly beyond me and makes me realize there's no debating with you.

However I will respond to your claim that I "deny the apportation of many many bands before those from norway." I don't know why you would even think this. I listen to almost every single band listed in this thread. I even wrote an article on Czech black metal for my magazine. Media attention and all that extraneous shit mean nothing to me, however, and doesn't change the fact that the Norwegians created more original and influential material than any other scene. Some of the things that Master's Hammer did are just as original, but clearly not as influential. My main point was that the genre itself, both in the way that it sounded and in the way that it was viewed, changed because of Norway, and no other scene can say that. Don't bother responding, because I'm not going to answer it.

[metalmaster]

Exorcist : Nightmare Theatre
mostly very black metal alike vocals and heavy satanic imagery , even if it was only a studio sideproject for 1 album

and not to mention the lyrics were antisatanic!

???

give me a quote or two

"I've got the Power of God, I've got the Healing Hand
I'm here for your Salvation, I will cleanse the Land
Turn Darkness to Light, Burn the Sun through the Night
I bear the Sword of Truth, Hatred can't dispute"

from call for the Exorcist

Perhaps "no antisatanic", but certainly not "pro-satanic". Also the fact of De Feis and Pursino playing and composing that album, makes it per se a non satanic album.

Has anyone mentioned already Abaddon from Mexico and Apocalispsi from Argentina???

[FuneralCircle]

Sorry but I have to agree with Metalmaster...

Really I think the Norwegian black metal scene gets caught up in way too much rationalizing... It was music mostly made by confused (or "eccentric" if you like) monkeys who didn't know such things like playing in key, or how to tune properly.

I'll admit that old Darkthrone is good, but Burzum is absolutely tosh. Never understood anything about that band, but then again I don't look to metal for philosophical analysis, which is why most people think Burzum is significant, seems to operate for them on some kind of platonic level or some shit.

Am I so bad for thinking black metal started with Venom and Bathory, and they were the greatest at what they did?

[metalmaster]

Rich, that 1980-86 list is solid, I'm brainstorming to think of bands missing.

I think there's a really obvious one missing.... Slayer!

Slayer's not on the list? Well, it certainly should be.

@metalmaster: No, I'm not going to continue this because it doesn't seem like you're even paying attention to what I'm saying. How you can listen to "Hvis lyset tar oss" and say "this basically sounds like a Bathory ripoff, there's nothing new or interesting here" is utterly beyond me and makes me realize there's no debating with you.

However I will respond to your claim that I "deny the apportation of many many bands before those from norway." I don't know why you would even think this. I listen to almost every single band listed in this thread. I even wrote an article on Czech black metal for my magazine. Media attention and all that extraneous shit mean nothing to me, however, and doesn't change the fact that the Norwegians created more original and influential material than any other scene. Some of the things that Master's Hammer did are just as original, but clearly not as influential. My main point was that the genre itself, both in the way that it sounded and in the way that it was viewed, changed because of Norway, and no other scene can say that. Don't bother responding, because I'm not going to answer it.

Auhmmm... well yes, I got that album and that song is pure Bathorysh (excepting that Quorthon had the nice touch of not torturing our ears with such horrible shouts... ggrrrrrr!! aargggg!!! Also Q. had the grace of not playing monotonous 8 mins tracks). As usual with you, havent gotten the point and your paranoia about me calling me a norwegian hater is beyond me, above all when i have mentioned many times I like Norwegian stuff and in fact i have many of those classic lps, cds, demos , tapes, reh, lives (in original first versions, of course, and without mentioning those letters from some of those gusy like Euronymous, Samoth, Mortiis, etc)... So, Mr Paranoia, forget it and do not label me as something I am not.

and I will respond the second part with your own quote: "BM does exist, it's what came out of Norway". No Black Metal before Norway is what i understand is written here. Of course the stuff of other bands is not so influential than those of the Norwegians, just because they had not the "support" of the sensationalist media (and those donkeys writing pompous books of something they had no clue about) since they didnt kill their formed friends, didnt burn churches and such graceful things the norwegian BM stars are known, besides their music, of course. Here is where the impressonable guys enter into the picture... the very same guys who saw norwegians as idols, wanted to be like them and wanted to play like them and thus norwegian BM became popular and of course influential. To deny all the push the media gave to the norwegian BM is to deny a fact everyone know here and everywhere... And I will say it again: without the circus the norwegian BM would have been as big as BM in any country.

Not responding? fine, after all you havent done such a thing since the very beginning.

[Dodens Grav]

What the fuck are you talking about? I NEVER said you dislike Norwegian black metal, I said you dislike that Norwegian black metal came to such recognition and influence. And I never said there was no black metal before Norway, so I'm going to have to call you a fucking idiot here (you're also a fucking idiot for not being able to distinguish between a song like "Hvis lyset tar oss" (the SONG, not the album) and Bathory's music). Please, please, PLEASE show me where you got this "BM does exist, it's what came out of Norway" from, because I NEVER said it, and I don't know what the fuck you're talking about. This is just aggravating now. You're not only putting words in my mouth, but you're putting words in my mouth by way of claiming that I put words in your mouth. You're just being an asshole. It was your decision to be a fucking dick in your response to me that unfortunately lured me to reply this one last time, by the way, even if I run the risk of being banned. Thanks for being mature about it.

And yes, Burzum and Darkthrone are among my favorite bands, but so are Venom, Bathory, Hellhammer, Mercyful Fate, Slayer, Master's Hammer, Mortuary Drape, Root, Rotting Christ, Varathron, Sabbat, and many other bands mentioned in this thread. It's not my fault that I have to disproportionately defend one band or group of bands over others when they're being attacked.

Also, Norwegian black metal became so influential not just because of media attention, but also because it was actually unique and different in many ways than what came before it, and yet it was also varied within itself. The Greek and Czech scenes were much more rooted in the 80s sound than the Norwegian (and Scandinavian as a whole) scene was, so it really should be no surprise that the 'newer' sound would become more influential than the 'older' sound that was less innovative. Obviously Bathory was an influence on all black metal that came after, but only a complete asshole would be able to listen to Hvis lyset tar oss and proclaim it a lost Bathory album.

Just to recap your bullshit claims:

I never said you dislike Norwegian black metal.
I never said black metal didn't exist before Norway.
No reasonable human being with a wide knowledge of black metal can say that Burzum is a Bathory knock-off act. The Norwegian scene, while influenced by Bathory, didn't even regard it as black metal, but rather thrash metal, so they obviously saw much of what they were doing as different as well.

[daniel]

I'm no huge fan of black metal, I find all the pseudo-intellectualism annoying, the applying greater meaning to the 'art' of black metal than any other metal, how it's supposedly so intelligent; yet the basic philosophies most embrace seem rather goddamn negative to me nor have I come across too many people who are into black metal who are interested in improving this world in any way. It is a musical style that embraces hatred, violence, selfishness and racism among other things. There's so much about bm I can't stand, yet still I like some of the music. I like Burzum a lot, but I don't agree with Varg's opinions, and a lot of his music is not even metal, but I still like it. The problem is people fighting over what should be allowed to be called bm, well while Venom and consequently Bathory etc. were the WIDE foundations, I still do not want to call those bands bm in the sense that when the term bm is used, I take it to refer to a certain sound; which yes largely originated back then, but two bands(exagerrating) don't make up a genre - the Norwegian scene birthed a real SCENE, it exploded from there - the popular notion of bm is correct I think. It takes nothing away from the old bands to say yeah those bands made it all possible, but it was later that others fully developed it into something 'unified'.
I'm 80's metal all the way, but to me that doesn't mean I have to argue everything reached it's culmination back then.
Btw, I don't think Bathory is such a genius as most do, well maybe in a creative sense, but I don't like the music too much, 'Hammerheart' and 'Twilight of the Gods' are my favourites, and 'Blood, Fire, Death' has its moments though exhausting, a lot of the rest of the time the music sounds like shit - records like the 'Nordland' ones are TERRIBLE, the vocals are abysmal - and people moan about Burzum, haha. It really is a CLEAR 'trend' to hate Burzum if you're into 'real' metal, otherwise why is he so often cited as the worst possible turd, back on the Miskatonic board you weren't even allowed to mention the name! Haha. Burzum is actually one of the oh so few bands from that period I still can enjoy, and I find the music far less contrived than many others. Still if someone starts going on about the spiritual or intellectual value of bm being somehow superior to the 'simple' metal of the past they'll get an argument out of me, that's the fucking height of arrogance - and it's very prevalent in the bm scene. It's a joke. It's a joke that these people DARE to harbour such attitudes and still pretend they really love heavy metal - heavy metal isn't about nihilism and destruction, and it isn't a fucking elite club where people laugh about others not being serious enough because they don't accept 'the dark' or aren't 'serious' enough. It's funny that I'm so completely anti-religious, yet I find myself far less annoyed with Christian metal bands,.. but I suppose if I had to interact with that scene at any other level than purely musical I would not be so positive.
And there you go, the problem I have with a lot of dm and bm etc. is there - I'm tired of so much negativity in music. Yes hm has spiritual value for me, not in a religious sense, I look at it as an alchemical practice whereby I can potentially elevate my being, and I care next to nothing how ridiculous anyone finds that. And yes I see that as quite different from believing I'm fulfilling some 'satanic'(read self-centered) purpose or invoking some 'forces of darkness'.