Bootleg Warning Thread

Avenger · Post by **Avenger** » Sun Oct 02, 2011 10:10 pm

perishinflames wrote:I'm probably not explaining this well. I mean the silver "matrix" covers most of the plastic inner ring, kind of like this:

Except it doesn't go in quite as far. The bootleg, well look at the pictures you'll see it looks "normal"

I know what you meant. I was concurring and adding to what you said with a general description of bootleg CD's. All of these bootlegs that I have seen have the actual Matrix centered in the rings. Where as the originals are always either closer to the center, the outside, or even cut off by the artwork on certain parts based on how well the CD was centered when pressed.

Stormspell · Post by **Stormspell** » Mon Oct 03, 2011 6:04 am

Avenger wrote:The Matrix of original CD's are never perfectly centered on the center ring. This is also another giveaway on, for example, the Target boot that everyone not in the "know" claims is identical to an original.

The relation between the matrix and cd artwork position-wise could be totally random and means nothing. It all depends on how the CDs are manufactured.

A big factory which have a fully automated stamping-printing line could "align" all cds to have identical "alignment" since the entire process is automated, while small factories which have to move/stack the discs manually between operations would show random deviations as such alignments are not considered or observed...

You really need to learn a bit before jumping to conclusions.

Avenger · Post by **Avenger** » Mon Oct 03, 2011 6:26 am

stormspell wrote:
Avenger wrote:The Matrix of original CD's are never perfectly centered on the center ring. This is also another giveaway on, for example, the Target boot that everyone not in the "know" claims is identical to an original.
The relation between the matrix and cd artwork position-wise could be totally random and means nothing. It all depends on how the CDs are manufactured.

A big factory which have a fully automated stamping-printing line could "align" all cds to have identical "alignment" since the entire process is automated, while small factories which have to move/stack the discs manually between operations would show random deviations as such alignments are not considered or observed...

You really need to learn a bit before jumping to conclusions.

This is coming from the anti-first pressing guy, so I wouldn't expect you to understand. Either way, there is always a hub that surrounds the center hole of a CD and then a ring around that. In this ring is where the Matrix is stamped and 95% of the time it's not centered from top to bottom. It's off centered. I've even checked your own releases and this fact applies. Bootleggers almost always center the Matrix. This is one of the dead giveaways. You can tell me all you want that I don't press CD's myself so, I wouldn't know but that doesn’t mean that what I'm saying isn't true. I'm not trying to use this thread as a means for bragging rights but I own thousands of CD's from both major and indie labels along with self-released discs and this criteria holds true for the vast majority of them. Take a look for yourself.

Stormspell · Post by **Stormspell** » Mon Oct 03, 2011 7:40 am

There's nothing to understand - placement of matrix and all it's attributes (font, size, alignment, etc.) are related to the stamper and the particular machine. They are not part of the template and I (or any other customer) have no control over them. It is up to the particular factory operator to set it as he sees fit, within the specifics and limitations of his equipment.

I also happen to have a small spindle with Greek bootlegs in my disposal, and some are "centered" and some are not, so your theory is flawed and wrong.

And just for the record, I'm not anti first-pressing per se, I'm only ANTI when someone is willing to pay beyond crazy money for it, when there would be a far superior re-issue available for regular price.

Avenger · Post by **Avenger** » Mon Oct 03, 2011 8:04 am

stormspell wrote:There's nothing to understand - placement of matrix and all it's attributes (font, size, alignment, etc.) are related to the stamper and the particular machine. They are not part of the template and I (or any other customer) have no control over them. It is up to the particular factory operator to set it as he sees fit, within the specifics and limitations of his equipment.

I also happen to have a small spindle with Greek bootlegs in my disposal, and some are "centered" and some are not, so your theory is flawed and wrong.

And just for the record, I'm not anti first-pressing per se, I'm only ANTI when someone is willing to pay beyond crazy money for it, when there would be a far superior re-issue available for regular price.

I understand this and it's actually part of the point I was making. The originals are often (Matrix wise) not pressed identically where as the bootlegs are attempted to be made to look "pretty". I don't own any of those shitty greek replica CD's but have had a few sent my way in the past and most were made by the same set of guys by the same plant, so I know what they look like. My theory is not wrong. Just look at the "Faithless" scan posted in this very thread for example...

Regarding your first press argument, we've been over this before. What you determine to be "crazy", "regular" and "superior" is entirely based on personal opinion and I'm not getting into this with you again.

Zdan · Post by **Zdan** » Mon Oct 03, 2011 8:19 am

I will just pop into this discussion with my own two cents and perspective. While, from a collector's point of view, a reissue IS truly not worth as much as the original pressing it does serve it's purposes. For example it's a great way for the younger and newer fans (with much less disposable income) to get into some classic underground releases. Also - not everybody can shell out the needed cash for hunting down a classic album. Some of my friends still do not own "Ample Destruction" because the prices/rarity of the album prevents it. So I do not see a reason why a good reissue should not co-exist on the market along with the first pressing.

Avenger · Post by **Avenger** » Mon Oct 03, 2011 10:28 am

Zdan wrote:I will just pop into this discussion with my own two cents and perspective. While, from a collector's point of view, a reissue IS truly not worth as much as the original pressing it does serve it's purposes. For example it's a great way for the younger and newer fans (with much less disposable income) to get into some classic underground releases. Also - not everybody can shell out the needed cash for hunting down a classic album. Some of my friends still do not own "Ample Destruction" because the prices/rarity of the album prevents it. So I do not see a reason why a good reissue should not co-exist on the market along with the first pressing.

If you want to beat a dead horse start a new thread about this.

Stormspell · Post by **Stormspell** » Tue Oct 04, 2011 2:00 am

Sorry to say it out loud, but you never listen to arguments and admit it or not, your "theory" is totally wrong. That concludes my input on this topic.

Avenger · Post by **Avenger** » Tue Oct 04, 2011 3:29 am

stormspell wrote:Sorry to say it out loud, but you never listen to arguments and admit it or not, your "theory" is totally wrong. That concludes my input on this topic.

Grab a handful of CD's and see for yourself.

Stormspell · Post by **Stormspell** » Tue Oct 04, 2011 4:12 am

Avenger wrote:Grab a handful of CD's and see for yourself.

Stormspell wrote:I also happen to have a small spindle with Greek bootlegs in my disposal, and some are "centered" and some are not, so your theory is flawed and wrong.

The conclusion is: every release, whether legit or bootleg, can be centered or not centered, so there is no "definitive giveaway" in this.

Avenger · Post by **Avenger** » Tue Oct 04, 2011 7:19 am

stormspell wrote:
Avenger wrote:Grab a handful of CD's and see for yourself.

Stormspell wrote:I also happen to have a small spindle with Greek bootlegs in my disposal, and some are "centered" and some are not, so your theory is flawed and wrong.
The conclusion is: every release, whether legit or bootleg, can be centered or not centered, so there is no "definitive giveaway" in this.

That's true but here's the thing... Those bootlegs do not match with the originals and the originals are all pressed with consistent positioning. My arguement is not that the Matrix cannot be anywhere on the CD, it's that the bootlegs do not match with the originals.

sovdat · Post by **sovdat** » Wed Oct 19, 2011 3:41 pm

http://www.ebay.de/itm/Angel-Dust-Into- ... 2a14d9f80c

msp · Post by **msp** » Wed Oct 19, 2011 9:37 pm

Does anyone know if Blind Guardian 'Night at the Opera' LP has been bootlegged? There seems to be quite a few turning up on ebay now...

Helstar · Post by **Helstar** » Wed Oct 19, 2011 9:48 pm

sovdat wrote:http://www.ebay.de/itm/Angel-Dust-Into- ... 2a14d9f80c

lol the booklet with the lyrics is funny

What's the point of cloning matrix code/cd layout then ?! Double idiots.

Avenger · Post by **Avenger** » Thu Oct 20, 2011 12:04 am

Helstar wrote:
sovdat wrote:http://www.ebay.de/itm/Angel-Dust-Into- ... 2a14d9f80c
lol the booklet with the lyrics is funny

What's the point of cloning matrix code/cd layout then ?! Double idiots.

They have "improved" it from the original.