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tomas wrote:"Real metal is metal with a message"
I think this is a really vague statement. What message are you talking about? What's Iron Maiden's message? What's Sarcofago's message? ...
I think you get my point.
Calling something 'real' seems like a moral decision, and I don't get the fact that you base it on something as vague as 'the message of a band'.

Well perhaps some bands didn't just want to be your usual redneck band with several distorted riffs thrown in. Were Venom or Mercyful Fate just some silly assholes that tried to make money on "being evil"? Or can you take a look on their lyrics (yes!) from another point of view - as a strike on conservatism, on your regular sunday Church, on the regular pushed life and morals ... Were Iron Maiden just about booze and sex and stuff, or does only the fact that they've been around for more than 30 years tell you something?
The metal message - to think with your own head & everything that comes with that. Maybe you should read some of Dark Angel, Slayer, Forbidden, early Metallica lyrics etc.

Or this one ...

The bringer of death has taken his life
The easiest way out he has chosen to die
His arian dream collapsed in the end
His Third Reich has failed as the hour zero began

Victory – The end of war the winners took all
Destiny – The relic of truth the jewish nation`s fall

Imprisoned – For the rest of their lives
Banished – To live in concentration camps
Tortured – To the last
Systematic – Mass destruction

The liberation brought freedom at hand
Discovered the truth noone expected to see
The jewish nation has been destroyed
Thousands lay buried in common graves

Victory – The end of war the winners took all
Destiny – The relic of truth the jewish nation`s fall

Bloodbath - 6 Million dead
Noone ever felt ashame in his head
Bloodbath - 6 million decayed
No cross set up where they laid

We should never forget the deeds that were done
We should always remember the pain they felt
We all must resist to end up like these
Who didn`t rose to fight against a deadly lie

Victory – The end of war the winners took all
Destiny – The relic of truth the jewish nation`s fall

Bloodbath - 6 Million dead
Noone ever felt ashame in his head
Bloodbath - 6 million decayed
No cross set up where they laid

Cannot really comment on modern "extreme metal" since I really don't listen to it but a good example for me of music with offensive lyrics that I like is CARNIVORE'S "Retaliation" lp. "Race War" is a truly offensive lyric - and the fact is I think they were pretty serious at the time. The music is just too good for me not to own the record however.

Unless "racial purity" is a cornerstone of a band's image I generally separate the performer/band's personal politics from the music.

For example, I'm pro-choice. Am I going to stop listening to RIOT because they wrote an anti-abortion song ("Silent Scream") or dump Ted Nugent's early stuff because he's a right-wing lunatic? Hell no.

And Lemmy flirted with Nazi imagery in the early days of MOTORHEAD (in addition to the swastika design the plane on "Bomber" is a German WWII model) but mostly for shock value and the fact that he thought it looked cool. His actual lyrics are the furthest thing from Nazi glorifying imaginable. "Orgasmatron" is a very political song that rails against the evils of organized religion, war and crooked politicians. Most of Lemmy's lyrics strike a humanist/Libertarian/hedonist stance.

In The Raw wrote:"Race War" is a truly offensive lyric - and the fact is I think they were pretty serious at the time. The music is just too good for me not to own the record however.

ehmm??? Offensive to who? Racists?

I'm deeply offened by the wordsmithery in the lines below:

Bloodbath - 6 Million dead
Noone ever felt ashame in his head
Bloodbath - 6 million decayed
No cross set up where they laid

Also - it's my humble guess that the Jews (and several others) wouldn't have been too keen on having crosses on their graves.

What song is it? Who wrote it? Am I an ignorant?

@sovdat:
If you were to give those lyrics to people who don't have a clue where they came from (like me), how many would identify them as 'metal lyrics' if you remove them from the context of this forum?
I don't see anything typically 'metal' about those words and I don't know if people would say 'Aaah, now those are lyrics of a real metal band, you know... the kind of band with a message!!!'

It's Darkness - Bloodbath.

No, non-metalheads think that metal is just a bunch of heavy riffs thrown together. It seems that many metalheads think the same ...

What's is so typically 'metal' about those lyrics??? That's what I menat with my previous post.

And by the way: I think those lyrics really suck.

I have one more question.Why most of metalheads from west consider Swastika as nazi symbol ? It's just old Sign used by lots of nations and cultures.By the way... If someone of you know Latvian SKYFORGER band (They're not nazi band) changed logo because of some troubles to tour in Germany and another countries.I think its dumb.Symbols of Soviet Union should be banned as well,because they killed more people than nazis.

http://www.sovietstory.com/

Also as far as I know most on NeoNazi metalheads comes from Eastern Block.I live here and know situation quite well.here in Lithuania as well as Latvia are a lot of so called "metalheads" (In all circles : Thrash/Death/Black) who worship nazis ideology.Maybe its have something to do with poor way of life or education.I do not know... Also another explan is that we lived under CCCP pressure and lot's of people here chose Nazi ideology(As oposite to system where we lived) instead staying away from politics

Communism isn't illegal, and the Soviet Union was just a moronic interpretation of communism.
Nazism is illegal because it's a government system based on racism and inequality.

tomas wrote:Communism isn't illegal, and the Soviet Union was just a moronic interpretation of communism.

I agree with second part of you sentence.But Communism and symbols of it should by banned as well.There's not much of difference from Souviet Union and Nazi Germany in 1939.

Nazism is illegal

Nazism is legal.Just look at U.S.A constitution (Free Word/Press).Every person can have personal wievs,

sovdat wrote:

In The Raw wrote:"Race War" is a truly offensive lyric - and the fact is I think they were pretty serious at the time. The music is just too good for me not to own the record however.

ehmm??? Offensive to who? Racists?

Yeah, that song is abslolutely anti-racism.
And about the lyrics issue, Metal is a musical genre, period. You have bands talking about God and love (Black Sabbath) and others about Satan and hate (Sarcófago) and both are Metal, an none is more Metal than the other. You can sing about left wing politics (like lots of Thrash/Crossover bands) or right wing (like lots of classic Heavy and Black Metal bands) and be Metal. Of course, I don't mean you should ignore any ideological aspect. If you want to pay attention to that is ok, but the main thing is and will always be the music. Metal is not a way of life, I've met several Metalheads which are absolutely obssessed about Metal yet they have their own way of living their lifes.

@lunaboy:
There's a difference between having racist views and walking around in an SS uniform waving swastika flags.

Communist symbols should not be banned. Just take a look at the basic theory of communism and compare it to nazi ideology. On paper and in theory, I see communism as more positive than nazism.
And communism is not the same as the Soviet Union. Most people seem to think that that corrupt dictatorship IS communism... I don't know where they got this idea. It's just a stupid interpratation.

@cochino:
I completely agree about the lyrics issue.
And I also think it's stupid to call metal 'a way of life'. Hahaha, that cracks me up every time I hear it. It's typical behaviour for people who only listen to metal I guess.

On paper and in theory, I see communism as more positive than nazism.

Where you live Tomas? My uncle ended his life in Syberia.My uncles brother were killed by commies when he was partisan of local offensive system.

Communist symbols should not be banned

It Shoul be.Its the same symbols as German Swastika.Because lots of Easter Europe countries had a lot or pain.PRAGUE,BUDAPEST,POLAND(Solidarnosc Years).

Compare :

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ChpuMLv6jiA

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wQbUe-auuTI

It's the same shit.

U.S.S.R Commes also killed Jews,Local nations as well as nazi Germany killed Jews,Gypsies...

Theres no difference.As I said before.Take a look at THE SOVET STOR movie.

Oh.And look at this book :

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Black_ ... _Communism

The breakdown of the number of deaths given by Courtois is as follows:

# 20 million in the Soviet Union
# 65 million in the People's Republic of China
# 1 million in Vietnam
# 2 million in North Korea
# 2 million in Cambodia
# 1 million in the Communist states of Eastern Europe
# 150,000 in Latin America
# 1.7 million in Africa
# 1.5 million in Afghanistan

It's an interesting subject and most people have had their say, but it's getting really off-topic. I'm sure there are better forums out there for these matters. I'm locking it now while it's still on a civil level. Feel free to keep debating via PM.

Locked/Admin

I was listening to the Warzwolf album tonight and trying to find some more info about the band, and stumbled across this Myspace site:

http://www.myspace.com/warzwolf

After that, I Googled some of the members to see if they were doing any music nowadays or if that ultra-rare LP has been reissued on CD format, and I ran across this article about vocalist/guitarist Cole Bailey. Very sad stuff. Has anyone else seen this?

http://www.phoenixnewtimes.com/2003-07- ... layer/full

Horrible stuff - can't believe the guy has had to deal with his son's death happening in such a manner.