Nazis in (extreme) Metal

Recommendations, discussions, questions & debates regarding the godly Metal of olde...
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The Knell
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Post by The Knell »

sagrotan wrote:
GJ wrote:
sagrotan wrote: sorry for being pedantic here but that's an Iron Cross - which is not on the same level of nazi-symbolism as a swastika! that you named it wrong proves your point though.. :wink:
The skull on the first album originally had a tiny swastika somewhere I think... Can anyone confirm this? I will check it with my brother, he's got zillions of Motörhead stuff - which has led me to leaving a shameful hole in my own record collection.
damn, did some googleing, seems you're right! obviously the Motörhead skull originally had a swastika instead of the Iron Cross (which replaced it on later versions..) - never was aware of that, all my records has the Cross, but none are originally from the 70s. crap, now I need to overcome political correctness and start a hunt for the originals :wink:

no I won't.. done with stuff like that after preferably buying KISS records with the original "SS" instead of the modified German ones.. :roll:
Cant seem to find it - I also thought the Iron Cross was meant with the Swastika. Can you post a photo?
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sagrotan
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Post by sagrotan »

The Knell wrote:
sagrotan wrote:
GJ wrote:
The skull on the first album originally had a tiny swastika somewhere I think... Can anyone confirm this? I will check it with my brother, he's got zillions of Motörhead stuff - which has led me to leaving a shameful hole in my own record collection.
damn, did some googleing, seems you're right! obviously the Motörhead skull originally had a swastika instead of the Iron Cross (which replaced it on later versions..) - never was aware of that, all my records has the Cross, but none are originally from the 70s. crap, now I need to overcome political correctness and start a hunt for the originals :wink:

no I won't.. done with stuff like that after preferably buying KISS records with the original "SS" instead of the modified German ones.. :roll:
Cant seem to find it - I also thought the Iron Cross was meant with the Swastika. Can you post a photo?
didn't find pictures neither, was referring to what i.e. wikipedia says:
Originally the Snaggletooth design included a swastika on one of the helmet's spikes. This was painted out on later re-releases of the albums on CD.
.. but now am confused again. the difference between a swastika and an Iron Cross should be clear - but maybe that means the Iron Crosses have been retouched? somebody needs to brighten that up. GJ, go visit your brother :wink:
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Piotr Sargnagel
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Post by Piotr Sargnagel »

Satan Is Our Pal wrote:If the music is good then why give a shit? if we all knew the politics of the musicians/directors/writers we listen to/watch. We'd all end up listening to Cliff Richard and ABBA and watching DIsney films for the rest of our lives.

It's no different from people who listend to King Tubby/Blood & Fire reggae music, they are hostile/racist to white people, but the music is so good that most people just enjoy the sounds. The same goes for Skrewdriver who did some great tracks.

Loads of poeple have flirted with the Nazi image, Lemmy, Bowie, Sex Pistols. Nothing new and I can't beleive people are so shocked by it.
I agree and disagree: "flirting with the image" is one thing but openly declaring that you want to destroy a race or races of people and having faith in that particular world view and thinking it's the correct one is quite another. On the other hand I'm a bit of a hypocrite anyway because I really like Grand Belial's Key (not the lyrics I hasten to add) but I'm sure I don't have a lot in common with Gelal's world view. However the talent and the conviction is there, like it is with King Tubby and this creates the music. Listen to Bach or Trouble other religious composers, the music is strong because of the conviction. It is a thorny problem. Why do I feel repelled by murderously racist lyrics and not murderously anti-Christian ones? Because I know, deep down, that "anti-Christian" musicians are as nice as pie when they meet priests but Nazi skinhead types advocate and maybe even participate in violence against human beings. That, however, is not going to stop me liking and respecting the compositions of GBH or Burzum or being fascinated by Charles Manson or Hitler while at the same time respecting and being fascinated by Freedem Movements of blacks and Indians. I also won't be PC because I think really PC people are just not saying what they REALLY think. At the end of the day it's music - does it move me? Yes. Good, I'll listen to it. Does it leave me cold? I won't listen to it! The sounds matter. Think of all the great literature that was created by Lovecraft and his dodgy political views... Is that going to stop me reading him????
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bigfootkit
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Post by bigfootkit »

How come everone describes Barak Obama as being black or half black, but i've never seen or heard anyone describe him as half white?
:D :?:
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In The Raw
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Post by In The Raw »

bigfootkit wrote:How come everone describes Barak Obama as being black or half black, but i've never seen or heard anyone describe him as half white?
:D :?:
Funny story.

My mother (who does not have a racist bone in her body) was on the phone with a southern relative who is a little "iffy" on racial stuff right before the election. Southern lady to my mother: "Know what annoys me? They keep saying Obama is half-black. He's half-white!"

Southern lady ended up voting for Obama (and did not tell her husband so as to avoid a divorce) btw.

So there you go. Some people do refer to him as half-white. :D
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bigfootkit
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Post by bigfootkit »

In The Raw wrote:
bigfootkit wrote:How come everone describes Barak Obama as being black or half black, but i've never seen or heard anyone describe him as half white?
:D :?:
Funny story.

My mother (who does not have a racist bone in her body) was on the phone with a southern relative who is a little "iffy" on racial stuff right before the election. Southern lady to my mother: "Know what annoys me? They keep saying Obama is half-black. He's half-white!"

Southern lady ended up voting for Obama (and did not tell her husband so as to avoid a divorce) btw.

So there you go. Some people do refer to him as half-white. :D
:D

Good tale!
I stand corrected!
:lol:
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Ernest Thesiger
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Post by Ernest Thesiger »

Smolken from Dead Raven Choir keeps calling him Barry Half-White.
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sovdat
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Post by sovdat »

I don't have time or will to read the whole thread, so just my $0.02: Even if the nazi bands sound metal, they can't be labeled as metal bands - lyrics are as well an important part of metal, even though most people seem to not care about them at all (why the hell are they writing them anyway, then?) - and metal was always against that kind of crap from its roots. Criticizing the politics and supporting genocide are two very different things ...
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tomas
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Post by tomas »

I don't think lyrics are important for a musical genre.
Hüsker Dü and Rites Of Spring didn't (always) sing about politics but they sure as hell are punk bands.

I think your statements about those bands not being metal don't make any sense. Why can't you label them as metal bands? Metal was always against that crap? I'm not stating the opposite of course but which bands are you referring to? The blatant anti-nazi hymns of Judas Priest? The all to obvious anti-dictatorship songs of Black Sabbath? I see metal more as something a-political, something that made a break with the political message of most punk bands in the late 70s / early 80s.
But does it slay witches?
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sovdat
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Post by sovdat »

OK, I'm not trying to convince anyone into something, as I said those were my two cents. Real metal = metal with message. Beginnings of metal - all the way from sixties and on through = rebellion! Against what? - Against the oppression, prejudices, racism, etc. - it's not necesseary that Pirest or Sabbath wrote clearly anti-nazi lyrics, or anti-government lyrics to be against those things - which found their extreme in Hitler's nazism.

About lyrics and metal genres - in my opinion they define the metal genre even more than the music, but that would be a topic for another thread ...
humus
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Post by humus »

sovdat wrote: Real metal = metal with message. Beginnings of metal - all the way from sixties and on through = rebellion! Against what?
Racism is rebellion against foreigner. Just saying man...
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tomas
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Post by tomas »

"Real metal is metal with a message"
I think this is a really vague statement. What message are you talking about? What's Iron Maiden's message? What's Sarcofago's message? ...
I think you get my point.
Calling something 'real' seems like a moral decision, and I don't get the fact that you base it on something as vague as 'the message of a band'.
But does it slay witches?
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GJ
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Post by GJ »

humus wrote:
sovdat wrote: Real metal = metal with message. Beginnings of metal - all the way from sixties and on through = rebellion! Against what?
Racism is rebellion against foreigner. Just saying man...
And that leaves rebellion being what? I don't think that the general racism in the western society in, say, the nineteenth and the early twentieth centuries could be described as an act of rebellion. Rather it was the people with power trying to keep themselves in a superior position (probably unknowingly so in many cases). Then I guess Hitler took that to an extreme and kind of rebelled, not against the people he intended to practise his racism on, but his germanic fellowmen (and the rest of the europeans/western socitety) whom he probably thought wasn't racist enough.
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Vinny Black
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Post by Vinny Black »

OK, referring to the Motörhead/Swastika/Iron Cross-thingy:
On the 1st official LP there's a swastika on the middle spike of the 'warpig'. From his left(your right)tusk hangs in a chain an iron cross.
The iron cross was not a nazi symbol from the start, but, if memory serves, a prussian order of some sort(consult your local library/war veteran), I think later on some sort of "bravery pin" for flying aces. And it was in circulation waaay before the nazi party was formed. None of these symbols are evident on the "Overkill"record though, but the iron cross returns(appropriate enough)for the "Bomber" LP cover. Venture along down the path of time and, ta-da: on the back of "Iron Fist" a mask replica of the 'warpig' is revealed, complete with swastika and iron cross. Then the symbols disappear on "Another Perfect Day", they named the 1984 comp."No Remorse"though...(Stay tuned for part II?)
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sovdat
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Post by sovdat »

humus wrote:
sovdat wrote: Real metal = metal with message. Beginnings of metal - all the way from sixties and on through = rebellion! Against what?
Racism is rebellion against foreigner. Just saying man...
Oh come on, and in what the fuck do you have to rebel about someone who's skin is in different color???
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