Money For Nothing & Music For Free

[Trigger]

[quote="Sgt. Kuntz]

@Trigger: Just because you want to have album xy and can't afford to buy it, then that doesn't mean you are automatically entitled to have it for free, haha, you can argue as much as you like, but that is a fact of life. Or maybe call it decency,

[/quote]

Why do people start saying arbitrary bullshit here and there?Do you even know me?Who the hell told you that I am looking to get stuff for free.Just find me one person.If you want to pay $$$,I don't give a shit,that's your problem,sorry I tried to open your blind arrogant eyes.I can argue of course only because I have a state of mind and a point of view that I can stand for,something you probably miss.My problem isn't apparently that I can't afford to buy a record,you can't probably GET the difference,I don't want to PAY HUGE $$$ for a record.Get that,and then we can discuss it further.Some people think that metal is only for collectors somehow and the rest are inferior.Well,I don't even dare to call myself a collector,even though I DO collect.You can call yourself anything you like though.Feel free!But next time,it's better for you to think before you speak and accuse others.That's more unethical than downloading an album,period!

[ION BRITTON]

For example that FORTÈ demo is now beeing rereleased on the new CD so theoretically that link should be removed, correct?

Correct, and it's good that you reminded me. I hope it will include the demo 'coz I don't see that anywhere in their website.

The CD comes from a small US label and it's not released yet:
It's announced as a "deluxe version" of the first album that has the demo tracks as bonus songs.

http://www.divebombrecords.com/site/releases/

Yeah, I see that, I don't see where the bonus songs are mentioned.

[nightsblood]

Trig's posts nicely illustrate the mentality regarding music among many people today (not picking on you Trig, you just provide a good example is all). To these folks, music is no longer thought of as a product that is made for you to buy, like a CD, or sandwich, or car... it's just information. It's something you simply look up and access, not something you pay to obtain. It can be called 'art' or 'a cultural product' or what-not, but the intent is to separate it from material goods that have to be purchased.

To be honest, I don't feel that semantics argument holds up very well. To apply Rich's logic to Trig's reply:

-if you want to attend the theater, you have to buy a ticket

-If you want to go to a concert, you have to pay the cover fee

-If you want to go to a museum, you have to pay admission

-If you want a lap dance, you have pay

These are not 'material products', they are all 'cultural products', yet no one questions that you should pay for these- try telling a stripper that you don't feel right paying for your lap dance b/c it's not a tangible product So I don't think one can argue that music sharing is ok because it's 'not a tangible product'.

Again, I don't mean to pick on Trig here

At the end of the day Ion- is right. If it's illegal to distribute copyrighted material, then posting or sharing any copyrighted music- no matter how obscure, how long out of print, or how unlikely it is to ever see re-release- is technically illegal and shouldn't be done. We justify it in underground circles in part b/c fans of small genres are rabid and want to hear everything. And as discussed above, in most cases, the band is not in a position to ever make any more money off their music anyway, so we're reasonably certain that we aren't taking (much) money out of the bands' pockets

[Trigger]

I am totally for that,that is why the bands DO burn you a CD with their material when they are asked,they don't do that because they like you and want only YOU to hear the music,but it's a good way to spread the word and relieve them from burning several to anyone who asks them.I have never ripped anything,I rarely d/l anything and there are bands that u/l their music themselves for the same aforementioned reasons.Oh,and every band member I have talked to feels exactly like that when I say I like ther music,honoured....

I'm not sure we're talking about the same thing here though. Active bands - bands with official distro - sharing is a big no no.
That's why I agree with Rich's opening post - as a label owner, I'd get mightily pissed off if my hard earned work found its way to a blog after just a few weeks. The ONLY time I believe it's ok to share music is when the band's been inactive for very long, and there's no label promoting their releases. Then, and only then, sharing actually helps the music scene.

I was the first one to make this discrimination in my initial post but it went unnoticed obviously,overruled by rage for my "heretic" view on the subject.

[Eskew Reeder]

It's good to hear that you did all those things with the bands you signed, but I don't think you understood what I was implying. And before I continue, I must tell you that I'm not here to force my views on anybody either.

I can tell you from experience that in the 80's there were plenty of "bootleg" labels mostly operating out of Europe that made obscure/unknown music available to the masses. These labels were treated for the most part the same way you describe above, as harmless distributors of "totally unknown music that some people are interested to hear because maybe that's their only chance to hear it".

I have stated above that I'm not talking about making bootlegs. Bootleging is about making money and I found your reference to the old bootlegers in your post a bit insulting 'coz what I was talking about was uploading music. Uploading music isn't always about making money and it's not always about fame, like you've said before. Anyway, I will talk about the situation in this forum. We are making rips and uploading rare stuff for free without making any profit from it. And making a rip does take time, you know. It's not something that happens in a blink of an eye. I'm sure that most of us are doing it not for the fame but for the love of music and because we want to spread the word about the x unknown cool band. And you better be sure that the same people who make those rips are the same people who will be the first to buy the stuff when it is officially rereleased. We are not here to ruin the music business or the bands who make honest and worthwile efforts. Most of us love this music and it's one of our biggest passions in life. Most of us want to support the bands and the labels who in our opinion are doing a good and honest work. But we also want to explore this music. And we want to discover cool unknown music as well. It should kind of obvious that we are not experts in mindreading nor we can tell the future. Maybe something that is uploaded here will be released in 20 years officially. We might be harming the sales of the year 2025 by what we are doing right now, but it's something that we can't know. We are trying not to harm the sales nor to ruin the bands' efforts. You should also know that albums that are in print or are scheduled for release through an official announcement are not uploaded. We delete uploads of albums that are not oop. To put this attitude in the same line with that of the bootlegers (old ones and recent ones) is a tiny bit unfair IMO. Yes, we are not legal and we don't own the rights to the music. But we are not doing it neither for profit nor for fame, but just for the sheer excitement that great music is giving us and for the pleasure of sharing something we think it's cool with the others. Maybe you see that as a criminal offense and maybe it really is and maybe it would be better if we stopped bothering with old unknown bands that didn't have a chance neither back then nor they do now...Honestly, I feel like I'm discussing with a cold business man who puts lawyers everywhere in order to save every single penny he can from his profits and not with a music fan...Sorry if this sounds harsh, but honestly that's how I feel with all this discussion...You also don't seem to realize that there were cases of sharing music online that generated great interest and made labels rerelease stuff that no one cared about before. And not only this, some of that stuff was nearly sold out as well. But that's a positive aspect of the matter and it shouldn't be mentioned.

And you know something...In an ideal world where all crime would be punished and all transgressors would be instantly brought to justice, I personally would sure as hell risk my neck by sharing BLIND ASSASSINS, MAJESTIC RYTES and LORD RYURS in order for the people to hear and not to let stuff like that sink into oblivion, even if it wouldn't have the slightest chance to be rereleased in this or any other lifetime.

Dude....you asked about the 80's....I told you about the 80's and somehow insulted you...for that I apologize.

I am not naive enough to not understand that you and others feel that sharing old music for free is "no harm/no foul".

I just happen to disagree.

And honestly, the comment that "hey, this rip took me time that I'm not reimbursed for" is beyond absurd considering the music itself probably took years of time and effort to create.

For those who feel that what a musician creates is part of culture and deserves no monetary re-imbursement I'm not sure what I can say that would change your mind...other than become a musician.

As far as music not being "tangible" it's just as tangible as a software program that can be downloaded and reproduced for free(albeit illegally).

In a different genre, the Grateful Dead have always been the most liberal band around about their fans bootlegging shows and trading tapes....but all surviveing members except for one now view the Internet as a tool that is taking millions of dollars out of their pockets, and the band had a big break-up over that exact point.

I find that both ironic and enlightening.

[Sgt. Kuntz]

[Why do people start saying arbitrary bullshit here and there?Do you even know me?Who the hell told you that I am looking to get stuff for free.Just find me one person.If you want to pay $$$,I don't give a shit,that's your problem,sorry I tried to open your blind arrogant eyes.I can argue of course only because I have a state of mind and a point of view that I can stand for,something you probably miss.My problem isn't apparently that I can't afford to buy a record,you can't probably GET the difference,I don't want to PAY HUGE $$$ for a record.Get that,and then we can discuss it further.Some people think that metal is only for collectors somehow and the rest are inferior.Well,I don't even dare to call myself a collector,even though I DO collect.You can call yourself anything you like though.Feel free!But next time,it's better for you to think before you speak and accuse others.That's more unethical than downloading an album,period!

No, i don't know you in person, i can only relate to what you write here and i just don't agree with everything, that's all. In fact your triads about the "owners monopoly" and "collectors mafia" are more like a good satire to me, i'm not sure if you are serious or not.

[Trigger]

Trig's posts nicely illustrate the mentality regarding music among many people today (not picking on you Trig, you just provide a good example is all). To these folks, music is no longer thought of as a product that is made for you to buy, like a CD, or sandwich, or car... it's just information. It's something you simply look up and access, not something you pay to obtain. It can be called 'art' or 'a cultural product' or what-not, but the intent is to separate it from material goods that have to be purchased.

To be honest, I don't feel that semantics argument holds up very well. To apply Rich's logic to Trig's reply:

-if you want to attend the theater, you have to buy a ticket

-If you want to go to a concert, you have to pay the cover fee

-If you want to go to a museum, you have to pay admission

-If you want a lap dance, you have pay

These are not 'material products', they are all 'cultural products', yet no one questions that you should pay for these- try telling a stripper that you don't feel right paying for your lap dance b/c it's not a tangible product So I don't think one can argue that music sharing is ok because it's 'not a tangible product'.

Again, I don't mean to pick on Trig here

At the end of the day Ion- is right. If it's illegal to distribute copyrighted material, then posting or sharing any copyrighted music- no matter how obscure, how long out of print, or how unlikely it is to ever see re-release- is technically illegal and shouldn't be done. We justify it in underground circles in part b/c fans of small genres are rabid and want to hear everything. And as discussed above, in most cases, the band is not in a position to ever make any more money off their music anyway, so we're reasonably certain that we aren't taking (much) money out of the bands' pockets

I can get your point,thus I am not offended.This is all about difference of opinions anyway,so noone should be offended to start with.But that wasn't what I said.I certainly buy music and i will keep doing that as long as my salary allows it.I have read guys talking about music in a way like "who gives a shit about what the lyrics say in this song,it's the music that matters anyway" and similar stuff which I'm totally against.What I'm trying to say,music is neither information nor mere entertainment for me.Lyrics DO play a part as much as music does,otherwise I' only buy instrumental albums.I don't hear screams when a human voice participating in a song,I hear structured sentences.I don't listen to music to dance to it,I do that because I need it,it's a part of my life.It is not just entertainment,it's much more.All these make it a cultural product instead of a material one!In other words,we are all illegal,if you listen to only original factory products,go on posting,otherwise shut up.But is it really like that?

[doomedplanet]

This is a fun thread!

Rich,
your mention of the Dead strikes a chord with me about something I've always felt. Many many bands are too naive in the regards of protecting their music. The best way to keep your legacy alive is to keep it alive by keeping your music in print. Way too many underground bands don't do this so their music gets bootlegged. Hard to control that if there is demand and no supply. The fact these bands are poor and cannot afford to do this is another thing completely.

BUT even more so, lets look at a band like Slayer or Metallica. There are a TON of live bootlegs on the market, for both these bands, going back 20+ years. But neither of them are savvy enough to think "Maybe we should start our own "Bootleg" series and get all this music into print, there is demand." Both of these bands have employees and big management, so it isn't like they don't have the staff to do something like this. There is a void here and it gets fill by the bootleggers. We can argue the ethics of boots of course but the facts remain apparent

I believe the Dead have their own bootleg series they sell(not sure anymore, I know they did in the past).

[Trigger]

@Sgt. Kuntz:So where is it that I say that I aim for free copies.Maybe in another post?Well,my nick is trigger here!You better be careful of what you accusing them for if you don't know people.I never talked about any collector's mafia anyway,but there are always silent unspoken rules in a monopoly or an oligopoly and we can't deny that.Not talking about any conspiracy either,it's just business.

[ION BRITTON]

Dude....you asked about the 80's....I told you about the 80's and somehow insulted you...for that I apologize.

You could have mentioned the tapetraders...by mentioning the bootlegers in juxtaposition to my post which concerned the uploading of music, yes, I found it a bit insulting. Anyway, if you sincerely mean that apology, I accept it.

And honestly, the comment that "hey, this rip took me time that I'm not reimbursed for" is beyond absurd considering the music itself probably took years of time and effort to create.

Problem is that we are not all always thinking in monetary terms. Time is not always money for me.
I never compared the effort of making a rip with that of making the music itself, I don't know why you saw it that way.


Anyway, It's quite obvious that we disagree. I want to ask you one more thing though: How do you suggest to preserve all this obscure stuff without being illegal? What do you think it should be done to save the unknown and forgotten bands from sinking into total oblivion? Do you think that all those obscurities will end up being officialy rereleased one day so that we all have a chance to hear them? And how many copies will be pressed if it is done in the end? And what will happen if the demand is greater than the supply and the releases are sold out before even people hear about them? What will happen to the ones who weren't fast or lucky enough to buy a copy in time? Will they wait for the next 100 years to see it being officially released? Will the labels make repressings? Will the give a shit about the increasing demand?
You are telling us that it the whole illegal and I don't say that it isn't. Please try to answer those questions though, because I don't think that I would be interested in this music the way I do now if I end up listening to same Maiden and Metallica records for the rest of my life and the most underground thing I'll ever get to hear would be Angel Witch.

[Trigger]

Illegal from illegal can vary,it's not always a crime!It's because labels say it's illegal mainly.

[Eskew Reeder]

You are telling us that it the whole illegal and I don't say that it isn't. Please try to answer those questions though, because I don't think that I would be interested in this music the way I do now if I end up listening to same Maiden and Metallica records for the rest of my life and the most underground thing I'll ever get to hear would be Angel Witch.

Cool.....we're making progress.

If I was going to start a blog where I posted up full LP's and artwork to be downloaded for free I'd do it the same way I ran my label. Contact the band and get their permission and input. If it is indeed true that most of them won't care this should be easy. The two obvious reasons I can think of that they would NOT want it to happen is A) They are embarrassed about the music and don't want people listening to it, which I then would oblige their wishes....or....B) They want to get paid at which time I would either wish them luck or try to help facilitate a deal with one of numerous known labels.

That's how I would do it.

[Trigger]

You are telling us that it the whole illegal and I don't say that it isn't. Please try to answer those questions though, because I don't think that I would be interested in this music the way I do now if I end up listening to same Maiden and Metallica records for the rest of my life and the most underground thing I'll ever get to hear would be Angel Witch.

Cool.....we're making progress.

If I was going to start a blog where I posted up full LP's and artwork to be downloaded for free I'd do it the same way I ran my label. Contact the band and get their permission and input. If it is indeed true that most of them won't care this should be easy. The two obvious reasons I can think of that they would NOT want it to happen is A) They are embarrassed about the music and don't want people listening to it, which I then would oblige their wishes....or....B) They want to get paid at which time I would either wish them luck or try to help facilitate a deal with one of numerous known labels.

That's how I would do it.

That's the most decent way to do it in my opinion if you did it for free and A) is very likely to have happened sadly,how low confident or tasteless some people are

[ION BRITTON]

If I was going to start a blog where I posted up full LP's and artwork to be downloaded for free I'd do it the same way I ran my label. Contact the band and get their permission and input. If it is indeed true that most of them won't care this should be easy. The two obvious reasons I can think of that they would NOT want it to happen is A) They are embarrassed about the music and don't want people listening to it, which I then would oblige their wishes....or....B) They want to get paid at which time I would either wish them luck or try to help facilitate a deal with one of numerous known labels.

What if there was a label deal and the band was bind to a contract? What if you couldn't find the label owner or the label owner wasn't interested in it? Would that stuff be considered as 'lost forever'?
What if you couldn't find the band? What would happen if you found only a member but that member didn't have the rights to the songs? Probably another case of lost music...
You're doing the right way, but I simply think that by that way a huge percentage of obscure music would have been lost forever or would have stayed in some dark basement without anyone knowing anything about it. And that it something that I wouldnt like to happen considering the enjoyment I have got all these years from listening to underground/less-known but great bands.
I personally prefer preserving as much of that stuff as I can and not letting it sink into total oblivion even if I have to do it the wrong way.

[Eskew Reeder]

If I was going to start a blog where I posted up full LP's and artwork to be downloaded for free I'd do it the same way I ran my label. Contact the band and get their permission and input. If it is indeed true that most of them won't care this should be easy. The two obvious reasons I can think of that they would NOT want it to happen is A) They are embarrassed about the music and don't want people listening to it, which I then would oblige their wishes....or....B) They want to get paid at which time I would either wish them luck or try to help facilitate a deal with one of numerous known labels.

What if there was a label deal and the band was bind to a contract? What if you couldn't find the label owner or the label owner wasn't interested in it? Would that stuff be considered as 'lost forever'?
What if you couldn't find the band? What would happen if you found only a member but that member didn't have the rights to the songs? Probably another case of lost music...
You're doing the right way, but I simply think that by that way a huge percentage of obscure music would have been lost forever or would have stayed in some dark basement without anyone knowing anything about it. And that it something that I would like to happen considering the enjoyment I have got all these years from listening to underground/less-known but great bands.
I personally prefer preserving as much of that stuff as I can and not letting it sink into total oblivion even if I have to do the wrong way.

No answer is going to be definitive...so you can throw up "what ifs" for days.

Considering there are literally 1,000's of bands, when I came upon a "what if" I'd move on to the next one.

You're looking for reasons to justify stealing someone's music and in my world that's not possible,.