15yo "Masters Of Metal"...?

'pataphysicien · Post by **'pataphysicien** » Fri Jan 30, 2009 12:18 am

GJ wrote:There are probably as many levels of being taken in by, or simply enjoying a good Heavy Metal tune as there are people finding that particular tune worthy of listening to. Still to a point I kind of agree with ION B. Sense of history has a point when it comes to really understand something. World war two wouldn't make much sense would you call it World War One. And being able to put things in a historical perspective does not take away your individual ability to experience a direct emotional impact of certain individuals' efforts in making Heavy Metal music, but it may add to the experience. Take Metal's No Sin by Slauter Xtroyes for example. Would this track mean the same to me if I would not know it was recorded by an American band in 1983? Would those completely insane jumps from relentless roaring to high-pitched screaming cause the same feelings of unease and complete fulfilment if I weren't aware what mainstream Heavy Metal were about at the same time? No, it probably would not, It would still be as great an emotional piece of music for sure and just as original. But had it been recorded in, say, 1986 it would not have had the same historical value as some of it's ingredients were used to a wider extent by then, albeit not mixed the same way (still hasn't happened).

Would I appreciate Iron Maiden as much without later having taken a look back in time and checking out early Wishbone Ash stuff (which I absolutely adore)? I don't think so. Still, to this day I hear Iron Maiden in Wishbone Ash and not the other way around, which may or may not piss the hard core of the Ash fans off, I guess. But I was ten years old when The Number of the Beast Was released upon the world and taking a lot of us now oldies for a lifetime ride of Heavy Metal. Wishbone Ash wasn't really an issue until I was seventeen or something and I can't do anything about this and I would be stupid trying to make excuses because of it.

good post. I would still think the historical understanding goes both ways as far as enjoyment goes. understand a history related to piece of music might make you appreciate it more, leave you utterly indifferent or even make you dislike it. same goes for WWII. if you're a WWII tank picture fetishist and you reaaaaally love looking at those tanks, it might change your relationship to find out what tanks are good for besides being looked at. on the other hand you might not care.

GJ · Post by GJ » Fri Jan 30, 2009 12:38 am

I must stress that I am no friend of any kind of violence/acts of war. The comparison was just a well known example (rather badly chosen) of a historical developement where one thing might have led to another and from which there may be a thing or two to learn. I myself would make a pretty bad warrior, both in the name of "my" country (for which I have been in court - refusing to do military service) and that of Heavy Metal (for which I haven't yet been booked).

'pataphysicien · Post by **'pataphysicien** » Fri Jan 30, 2009 12:48 am

no worries. I didn't see anything wrong or weird in your post. it was simply an example.

apollo.ra · Post by **apollo.ra** » Fri Jan 30, 2009 12:50 am

i'm 21, i listen solar eagle and thatcher but i always have in my weekly playlists that "something" i should knew but i didn't, (because i have access to Tons of stuff and i Can't learn the whoke metal story in so little time ...)
For example i might listen
Desolation Angels, Tantrum & Iron Cross
but at the same time i listen to that Manilla Road albums that i hadn't, to that Dio songs that never heard before, to that Judas Priest, Savage Grace, Omen...etc....
That's why i always say "I only know a small part of metal, even if i can name you thousands of bands!"

Helm · Post by **Helm** » Fri Jan 30, 2009 1:47 am

apollo.ra a small question if you don't mind: what led you to download Tantrum and Solar Eagle instead of Manilla Road or Omen or even, Iron Maiden first?

apollo.ra · Post by **apollo.ra** » Fri Jan 30, 2009 2:25 am

of course i first listened to Manilla Road, Omen, Iron Maiden... but not their complete discography...
That's why i put their unlistened records parallel with the new to me underground bands. to fill the missing holes...

(Θα σε δούμε Up-The-Hammers?)

bigfootkit · Post by **bigfootkit** » Fri Jan 30, 2009 2:37 am

Where are all these 15 year old "Metal Masters" you all speak of?
I know a lot of young guys (and gals) into music from the time i spend at our guitarists studio, and yes, there are some i encounter who are actively seeking out older bands to get into, who'll ask you to recommend good music once they realize there's a world beyond Trivium, or whichever band got them interested in the Metal scene initially.
Some of them are coming along nicely too!
But, the great majority, seem to be into 3 or 4 "flavour of the month" bands and seem uninterested, or perhaps unaware of, the history of Metal and the bands who influenced their heroes. Maybe that's something which will come to them later, or their interest will wane.
Either way, i refuse to believe that the 15 "year old metal master" is as prevelant or "problematic" as this thread presumes.

Sacrilegio · Post by **Sacrilegio** » Fri Jan 30, 2009 4:04 am

bigfootkit wrote:Where are all these 15 year old "Metal Masters" you all speak of?

...

MEXDefenderOfSteel · Post by **MEXDefenderOfSteel** » Fri Jan 30, 2009 4:23 am

"kvlt kiddies" im digging that name haha....so fuul of thise evol ones in mexico city

metalmaster · Post by **metalmaster** » Fri Jan 30, 2009 4:55 am

Actually I think we, the so (self)called metallers take much time and efforts to complain about trendies, posers, newcomers, etc to understand that, perhaps we are the real problem, or even part of it. Why we should care about someone who sooner or later will leave metal to jump into anothere trend? That is wasted time.

I actually care about me letting know youg (and not so young) boys about Metal, if they continue into Metal, great, if not, not problem. Some say that those "desecrate" Metal... The High art of Heavy Metal can't be desecrated. Some other say that those newcomers are killing Metal... How cant be killed what is immortal? Heavy metal is much more than us, mere mortals...

Again, we complain and waste time in something which has no relevance. Better be sure YOU (any of you all ane myself included) are not the real problem we claim to "fight".

And... I'm the one and only METALMASTER, period!

Cochino · Post by **Cochino** » Fri Jan 30, 2009 5:43 am

I'm younger than most guys here and also I'm from a country where is hard to get original stuff unless you're loaded so let me tell you how it was for me.
I started listeing to some pretty crappy "metal", won't name bands 'cause it's too embarassing. Then when I was about 14 a guy handed me over a CD of Master Of Puppets and my interest about old metal started. I dubbed it on tape and did the same with tons of other CDs and tapes coming my way, some of them were already copies. Metal Church, Morbid Angel, Black Sabbath, Pungent Stench, I know all those bands because I dubbed the tapes, which is pretty much the same as downloading mp3s. Of course, from time to time I bought the CDs I could afford like Sepultura, King Diamond, etc. Depending on dubbed tapes for years might have given me a closer perspective to the old school, but still I think mp3s are a great tool and without them I wouldn't have known many bands which I bought the original stuff later on. What's important is the honest enthusiasm of the individual. An asshole is an asshole with mp3s or dubbed tapes, that doesn't make the difference. I'm pretty sure that there are even some assholes who buy stuff they didn't listen carefuly. Does that mean they're better than someone who listens to mp3s and cares about music? I don't think so.

rictusgrin666 · Post by **rictusgrin666** » Fri Jan 30, 2009 7:52 am

wow, some rally interesting reading in this thread...
it reminds me of many conversations and ideas from art theory courses I took at university many years ago. The idea of young "metal masters" (and I see these too a lot at the high school where I teach) I guess reminds me of Bourdieu's cultural capital - andit is the nature of teenagers, (sorry for the generalisation here) to impress others and show off - whether through dress, attitude, possessions to boost their status. So the wide collection of mp3's, band names to toss around etc provides this for them.

It also reminds me of how one acquires real critical appreciation for something - someone mentioned how unlikely it is for one to get into metal by hearing Manilla Road first. I agree with this - some aspects of metal that I really love aren't instantly appealing. King Diamond and John Cyriss are a couple of my favourite vocalists ever, yet when I was a young Metallica/Slayer-head I couldn't get into high-pitched vocals. As has been said by Helm, it does take devotion, commitment, and "study" (so to speak) to develop the knowledge and REAL appreciation for the form - to enable one to appreciate the nuances, variations, innovations and look past subpar recording techniques, crappy guitar tones in a similar way a wine connaisseur can grasp many ranges of flavours and assess grape quality etc... - hope that doesn't sound too pretentious - nor do I mean to imply that heavy metal is like fine wine! What I mean is, that anyone can build a collection, and even toss around the jargon, but too appreciate the flavours....? That's another thing.
Having a large collection, rarities, worn t-shirts does not a metal master make.

Thanks for the interesting reading, I initially thought this thread was gonna be about an old compilation or something

PsychoDad · Post by **PsychoDad** » Fri Jan 30, 2009 10:22 am

Helm wrote:The only way I am interested to classify someone's love of HM is to see if they know the lyrics, they know the music they love intimately and they have assigned personal meaning to these pieces of art they say they love. They can explain to me what it makes them feel and how it has made their life better. That's all. If they can do that while being 15 and having 10.000 records or if they can do that at 40 years old with a collection of priceless vinyl is completely not interesting to me. I've met both for example, a 19 year old girl whom had considered her HM intimately, and a 40 year old 'record collector' that couldn't tell you what HM was about fundamentally. So I don't judge by age.

I get very excited when I meet someone with a sincere love of Heavy Metal as a statement, not just as a sound. We all start with sound. Heavy guitars and double-bass drums and high pitched screams. But after these years I've spent listening to HM, I can no longer be satisfied just by the form, I need to appreciate the content and I am looking for people that appreciate it too. You can spot these people not by how uber-obscure their listening habits are, but by ethos and emotional depth.

There is no such thing as going through HM too quickly. If someone is curious and apt and it suits their idiom, within a year of careful listening they would have understood what HM is about on a bare level and I could talk with them about it for lengths of time happily. There is however the case that some people listen to HM in a wrong way. They SAY they understand what they listen to and yes, I accept that it might spark in them some rudimentary emotion related to the form, but they haven't really spent the time with the content. These people can be 15 or 30, doesn't matter.

Some people in this thread justify their more honest HM love by saying that they have had to endure hardship to get to the tapes and the rare vinyls. Sacrifice of time does create bonds, I'm sure. But for me it's not so much how difficult it is to find a record, but what you do with it. My favourite record is 'Awaken the Guardian', it can be found in any good record store. I didn't have to cross unknown lands or swim an ocean to find this LP and I wouldn't justify its value by how much I had to suffer for it in any case. I played it for years and at some point it opened up to me. It wasn't a painful proccess, it was just about patience. These kids with 10,000 mp3s, some of them will have the patience to weed out the good stuff from that selection in the next 5 years, some of them not. If they didn't have this esoteric patience to sit with a record and listen to it 100 times, then it wouldn't help them at all to be more 'serious' about their HM habits if it was difficult to find records like in the 1980s.

In effect, the ease of getting material today helps those potential serious listeners a great deal without hurting anyone. There'll always be posers, who cares. The idea is for the serious people to have the ability to listen to ye olde obscure heavy metal without sacrificing absurd amounts of time or money.

Very good post!
I think I have pretty much the same view on metal as you.

tomas · Post by **tomas** » Fri Jan 30, 2009 10:39 am

"someone mentioned how unlikely it is for one to get into metal by hearing Manilla Road first"

Almost everyone I know that isn't into metal really likes the Crystal Logic LP when I play it for them

And to comment on the 'taping music is the same as downloading'...
No, it isn't!!! When I used to make tapes (and I still do), it took a lot of time.
Everything happens in 'real time'. A 45min CD will take 45min to put on a tape. Then you had to write down the song titles. If someone gave you an EP, you didn't want to waste a full/new tape, so you went through your tape collection to find a tape that had +/- 20min of time left at the end...
Downloading is a lot easier. Switch on the computer and click the links or songs.

GJ · Post by GJ » Fri Jan 30, 2009 10:45 am

Crystal Logic is cheating! You should present Friction in Mass to them and if they piss their pants in sheer happines as Shark roars "Drunk on virgin blood" they have got what it takes.