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Well isn't that it's 'standard' a good enough reason to consider not doing it? Isn't HM supposed to push the boundaries, be unique?

Helm wrote:Well isn't that it's 'standard' a good enough reason to consider not doing it? Isn't HM supposed to push the boundaries, be unique?

Sure, but at the same time rebelling for the sake of rebelling is just ignorant.

It's not so much about pushing the boundaries as it is trying to be original in something that's already been done before.

If a band wanted to be truly original, I guess they could mix, say reggae and progressive thrash or something.

It would sound like shit, but hell, they are "pushing the boundaries".

Avenger wrote:

Helm wrote:Well isn't that it's 'standard' a good enough reason to consider not doing it? Isn't HM supposed to push the boundaries, be unique?

Sure, but at the same time rebelling for the sake of rebelling is just ignorant.

That's pretty much where more of the early decent music in punk and HM started though, heh!

Also as far as 13th Sun goes, if you listen to the record you'll see that it doesn't suffer from the lack of guitar solos, and as such I don't think their lack is for the sake of it.

It's not so much about pushing the boundaries as it is trying to be original in something that's already been done before.

I draw a distinction between trying to be 'original' (which as a direct goal is vacuous) and trying to be 'personal'. A personal thing is unique by nature, but it's not trying to be such. It is what it is. But the quest for originality is a modernist concept that has been diffused by postmodernism. You can see it in the current state of HM: it's either aesthetic mimickry of past metal gods (or even worse, aping of the general characteristics of a whole genre!) , or it's 'humble' "we wanted to make a band and we're not thinking about what it means" stuff. Defeat from either direction.

Not many have the fortitude to inject to their art, their own personality. I think while 13th Sun sounds like Sabbath, it really is not Sabbath worship at all, it is personal and unique, and that's why it's good. I see nothing personal in the last two Candlemass records.

If a band wanted to be truly original, I guess they could mix, say reggae and progressive thrash or something.

This is again a question of post-modernism. Genre mixing produces superficially novel sounds, but what does it do for aesthetic vision, what of honesty and what of pathos? Can a band play passionate reggae-prog-thrash? Can they make it mean something? If not, I am not interested. If so, I'd love to hear them!

Helm wrote:Can a band play passionate reggae-prog-thrash? If so, I'd love to hear them!

Well Bad Brains & Fishbone kinda did???

& 24-7 Spyz had some metal songs mixed with reggae/funk/soul on all their albums:
http://www.myspace.com/hms4l

S/T was nothing special, but KOTGI certainly has its moments. It´s very easy to reject those albums if you compare them with Epicus..or any of the other early masterpieces.

Devil Seed is one of their best songs ever in my opinion.

Helm wrote:

Avenger wrote:

Helm wrote:Well isn't that it's 'standard' a good enough reason to consider not doing it? Isn't HM supposed to push the boundaries, be unique?

Sure, but at the same time rebelling for the sake of rebelling is just ignorant.

That's pretty much where more of the early decent music in punk and HM started though, heh!

Also as far as 13th Sun goes, if you listen to the record you'll see that it doesn't suffer from the lack of guitar solos, and as such I don't think their lack is for the sake of it.

It's not so much about pushing the boundaries as it is trying to be original in something that's already been done before.

I draw a distinction between trying to be 'original' (which as a direct goal is vacuous) and trying to be 'personal'. A personal thing is unique by nature, but it's not trying to be such. It is what it is. But the quest for originality is a modernist concept that has been diffused by postmodernism. You can see it in the current state of HM: it's either aesthetic mimickry of past metal gods (or even worse, aping of the general characteristics of a whole genre!) , or it's 'humble' "we wanted to make a band and we're not thinking about what it means" stuff. Defeat from either direction.

Not many have the fortitude to inject to their art, their own personality. I think while 13th Sun sounds like Sabbath, it really is not Sabbath worship at all, it is personal and unique, and that's why it's good. I see nothing personal in the last two Candlemass records.

If a band wanted to be truly original, I guess they could mix, say reggae and progressive thrash or something.

This is again a question of post-modernism. Genre mixing produces superficially novel sounds, but what does it do for aesthetic vision, what of honesty and what of pathos? Can a band play passionate reggae-prog-thrash? Can they make it mean something? If not, I am not interested. If so, I'd love to hear them!

I think you missed my point...

This has nothing to do with the 13th Sun album specifically, but rather modern doom in general.

What's with the lack of solos?

I ask because it was used previously as an example of a strong point to the album and I can't see why that's a good thing...

Oh, sorry. I see. I have no idea, a well-placed melody line is a good thing in most cases.

I'm another one who thinks that "From the 13th Sun" is my favourite Candlemass album. I think I'd rank them:

From the 13th Sun
Epicus Doomicus Metallicus
Nightfall
Tales of Creation
Dactylis Glomerata
Ancient Dreams
Chapter VI
s/t

I might change those around a little on a whim - I really don't know if I like Dactylis Glomerata better than Ancient Dreams. I don't know KOTGI well enough yet to guess where it'd fit in. I was disappointed with the self-titled album (though it's still really good) because I was interested in the more experimental middle-period of Sunger Sigge Furst (sp?), Abstrakt Algebra, Dactylis Glomerata and From the 13th Sun and I wish they'd kept more of that spirit.

I wonder if the Abstrakt Algebra album would have sold better if it had a better cover design. I guess if your band is called Dream Theater or Stratovarius or Queensrushe this Keith Olbermann in space approach would work fine:

Fucking Åmål wrote:The new one with American Vocalist from boring SOLITUDE AETURNUS( )?Come on is this CANDLEMASS?
Leif Edling thinked like Jon Schaffer taking Tim''Ripper'' Owens for Iced Earth.

Yeah, I mean SA are sooooo boring. They never did a decent riff, fucking lightweighters, there's no heart, no passion, no emotion, sub par musicianship and godawful vocals, not to mention the pathetic lyrics (but on the other hand, all lyrics suck when compared to "Metallic alps", so it's not a surprise). Deutsch-Tyrant on the other hand, now that's the real deal.