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The Sentinel wrote:Obscurity has indeed nothing to do with the quality of the music. Like 75% of my all time faves are widely available. In my book MOP does not live up to the hype, the quality isn't strong enough. I also don't believe in the "right album at the right time" thing; was it time for something new then? As far as I now things were more then fine before MOP.

I think you missed my point, I feel I have moved on from pioneer bands to so to speak, they seem to just be entry level elementary if you will, if everyone knows of them and worships they seem to lose value in many ways and usually because people are just jumping on the bandwagon and saying they are great after many metal heads had moved on to other bands and as soon as the hype has died down the album is reissued again and you've got people worshiping it like crazy like they had just discovered sliced bread for the first time, I've always found a lot of mainstream metal bands unfairly got credit for certain achievements in the metal world and there is always an underground band that got the short end of the stick who was the true pioneer and got swept under the more accessible watered down bands of their style, don't get me wrong I am not applying this to metallica or other bands named so far but I'm sure you know what I mean.

Abyss wrote:I think you missed my point, I feel I have moved on from pioneer bands to so to speak, they seem to just be entry level elementary if you will, if everyone knows of them and worships they seem to lose value in many ways and usually because people are just jumping on the bandwagon and saying they are great after many metal heads had moved on to other bands and as soon as the hype has died down the album is reissued again and you've got people worshiping it like crazy like they had just discovered sliced bread for the first time, I've always found a lot of mainstream metal bands unfairly got credit for certain achievements in the metal world and there is always an underground band that got the short end of the stick who was the true pioneer and got swept under the more accessible watered down bands of their style, don't get me wrong I am not applying this to metallica or other bands named so far but I'm sure you know what I mean.

PUNC-TU-ATION!

I scanned thru this post and did not find one fucking dot, so I couldnt be bothered to read this shit.

So why bother to quote it?

The Sentinel wrote:Obscurity has indeed nothing to do with the quality of the music. Like 75% of my all time faves are widely available. In my book MOP does not live up to the hype, the quality isn't strong enough. I also don't believe in the "right album at the right time" thing; was it time for something new then? As far as I now things were more then fine before MOP.

Yeah, I have noticed you're going for savagery. I have full respect for this, of corpse. I'm still waiting for some savagely brutal prog metal to be released. Right.

Helm wrote:Actually if you worship Motorhead that'd be a good reason to listen to Johnny Kid and the Pirates more closely (if Lemmy likes them and considers them influential to their sound). You don't have to like it, but you don't have to completely devalue it just to make a statement.

I never said I hadn't listened to them closely, or that I was devaluing them to make a statement. I did indeed listen to them, particularly because they were an influence on Lemmy, but compared to other bands of the time they just sucked.

That's my informed opinion, and again - just because I like MOTORHEAD, doesn't make that opinion "silly" (nor "elitist"). Not at all.

It's totally sensical to like a band (like any number of great bands that said they worship Master Of Puppets) and to think their influences (Master Of Puppets) are lifeless and dull.

Helm wrote:If MOP was released to little aplomb in 1986 in 100 vinyls that were given to the band hand to hand, right now this forum would love them so hard it wouldn't even be funny.

Now come on, I respect your position, but this is making a huge leap and you know it isn't justified. There are plenty of ridiculously famous bands people on this forum love (Sabbath, Megadeth, and so on), some of whom have sold more albums (= less obscure) than Metallica, and some of whom have sold out musically as well. Yet these people still praise old releases by those bands. Plenty here also praise OTHER albums by Metallica. So why does Metallica supposedly provoke a "knee-jerk reaction" from obscurity-loving elitists, and especially this album, but not RTL and KEA ? Could it possibly be because we actually do find Master Of Puppets boring, lifeless, and despairingly average ?

The best album for me Metallica made was ''Kill 'Em All''.But anyway Metallica was never a fave band for me.Their style was always too safe for my taste even in their 3 ''masterpieces''.Exactly because of this safe/easy style and the media lanceration became popular for everyone.
I dislike them even more for their stance/comments/commerciallity/wimpiness and lots signs of their behaviour after the $$Black Album(Ultra shit)$$

You will ask me''but you must admit Metallica released masterpeaces/had talent''.No Metallica had NOT more but much LESS talent than other tons more ''unknown'' bands of the 80's that they weren't lucky for many factors.

When I started to listen to HM I got into MANOWAR right from the start. There soon was a "rivalry" at my school about what was the best Metalband. I was the MANOWAR fraction, haha.
My "enemies" were the JUDAS PRIEST Fans and the METALLICA Fanatics, we always dissed the bands the others loved, can't remember how this evolved but it was a clear case of "either ... or...", it was IMPOSSIBLE to like MANOWAR AND METALLICA.
It took me some years to finally be able to give Metallica a real chance and listen to their music without any prejudices.
Well, what I found was a fantastic band (of course still not as fantastic as Manowar) and awesome records, my favorites being RIDE THE LIGHTNING, JUSTICE FOR ALL, MASTER OF PUPPETS.
I remember when the black album came out, I sooo much hated it. But looking back now I must correct my opinion, the BLACK ALBUM is more commercial, but it is GREAT, I love it! *


*And I know among obscure-metal worshippers I stand alone with this view

OmenOfSteel wrote: I remember when the black album came out, I sooo much hated it. But looking back now I must correct my opinion, the BLACK ALBUM is more commercial, but it is GREAT, I love it! *


*And I know among obscure-metal worshippers I stand alone with this view

You are not alone.

I remember when I got my copy and played it being really disappointed as it was not as fast I wanted it to be. Time is a great healer though and now I do like it a lot.

However, anything they did after are musical abominations in my eyes and comes across as MTV Metal of the worst sort. They should clearly give up now, just like Slayer also. In fact both should have given up in 1991!

I loved Metallica when I was younger as it was my gateway into the "heavier" world. Being 13 years old in 1988 you may well imagine the impression And Justice For All made on me. Before then, I only knew Maiden, Van Halen, Kiss etc.

Now come on, I respect your position, but this is making a huge leap and you know it isn't justified.

Well from my point of view a lot of the stuff people idolize in here doesn't stand up to inspection, but gets special treatment because it's rare and obscure. This isn't a huge leap then, to suggest that if MOP was rare and obscure, it would be treated far more favourably.

Plenty here also praise OTHER albums by Metallica. So why does Metallica supposedly provoke a "knee-jerk reaction" from obscurity-loving elitists, and especially this album, but not RTL and KEA ?

Well we should ask these people that consider MOP worthless if they like any other albums by Metallica. And why does metallica get the kneejerk reaction? Because they're the absolutely biggest metal band in the world, everybody knows them, and this is hard to swallow for 80's purists. No other band comes close to that saturation.

Could it possibly be because we actually do find Master Of Puppets boring, lifeless, and despairingly average ?

I am sure some honestly do. Some others probably do not.

Helm wrote:Well we should ask these people that consider MOP worthless if they like any other albums by Metallica. And why does metallica get the kneejerk reaction? Because they're the absolutely biggest metal band in the world, everybody knows them, and this is hard to swallow for 80's purists. No other band comes close to that saturation.

This ignores my point that many of us who dislike MOP like RTL and KEA.

RTL and KEA are ALSO by the "absolutely biggest band in the metal world", but some of us who dislike MOP are ready to praise those two.

Therefore, the fact that Metallica is famous probably has nothing to do with our dislike of MOP, right? After all, we (the aforementioned) like OTHER Metallica albums.

And Metallica is NOT the biggest selling metal band in the world; Sabbath & Deep Purple out sell them - Deep Purple have sold 250 million copies and Sabbath 300 million. Yet many obscure metal elitists admit to liking them, too. Obviously obscurity isn't a huge hang-up.

You're right, a record that is more obscure definitely will get more praise; but a band that is famous is necessarily hated by collectors just because it is so. It's often just the music.

Azaras wrote: This ignores my point that many of us who dislike MOP like RTL and KEA.

Two things: first of all, who are these people? Speak for yourself. I am prepared to accept that some people genuinely don't like the record, but I am adressing the possibility that there's another mindset at work at the same time, it doesn't have to go for you, it's a more generalised statement. Can you admit that I'm not just making shit up?


Second, RTL and KEA didn't break open the band, MOP did, and as we know purists hate the 'selout' moment. This moment for Metallica for the longest time has been considered to be the black album, but as purism does, it is retconned closer and closer to the beginning of the band. 10 years from now there'll be people that say they only love the metallica demos, and Kill 'Em All was a huge selout. That's just the nature of obscurity-based fandom.

There's people that only listen to the first two Iron Maiden LPs and hate the rest of the stuff. Now, stay with me, I also listen to the first two, but I don't hate the rest of their material, it just doesn't do it for me generally (7th son does). It's the extremist points of view I find unjustifiable. If I were to say the moment Bruce came on board Iron Maiden just begin to FLAT OUT SUCK SUCK SUCK FUCKING SELOUTS then I'd be equally ridiculous, right?

What changed for metallica in the span of a year? Nothing. As they've said many times, they didn't even think MOP was any more special than RTL. They said it was 'business as usual'. Wrote songs, toured, went to the studio and recorded. It came out - as usually the greatest heavy metal albums do - without anyone knowing they had made one of the greatest heavy metal albums. Fates Warning were doing 'business as usual' when they made 'Awaken the Guardian' too if you ask Jim Matheos (Arch has different point of view on that one, heh) and it's one of the best heavy metal albums there will ever be. Keep that in mind.

You're right, a record that is more obscure definitely will get more praise; but a band that is famous is necessarily hated by collectors just because it is so. It's often just the music.

It's not just that they're famous. Sadly, we feel we know Metallica personally. What with the documentary and all the press coverage and all the interviews, we think we know James and Lars and Kirk personally. We feel we have the right to judge them. For christ's sake, go read UltraBoris' review of Master of Puppets on the Metal Archives and tell me if he's overstepping a simple review into an actual psychological analysis of James Hetfield, as if he knows him, as if he confided in him. Metallica have been demystified. They're not metal gods, we know everything about them. That makes them small, that makes them petty. It's a method of revenge by the betrayed listener to disvow Metallica's art because they've been demystified. It's almost embarassing to like Metallica now that they're shit and we know all about their shit. Similarly, a lot of people don't give a lot of note to Ozzy 'Prince of Darkness/Sharon slave' Osbourne regardless of how much they like Sabbath. See what I mean? Metallica are a very special band with a very special set of circumstances surrounding them. And I say besides all the bullshit, once this band was great and we shouldn't feel they're our cousins we are berating. Once they made MOLTEN STEEL that is timeless and will never dull.

still a great album. i rarely listen to it because its one of those albums that i can play front to back in my head from playing it a billion times as a youth, but when it comes on i'm certainly not complaining

Oddly enough I got banned from metal archives for anti ultraboris sabotage on the metallica page, another user and I added a release called ultraboris loves s/t anger or something to that effect , one of his friends over at metal archives says he is no longer involved in the metal scene so I hope to never see any bullshit reviews from him again.

khiijol wrote:still a great album. i rarely listen to it because its one of those albums that i can play front to back in my head from playing it a billion times as a youth, but when it comes on i'm certainly not complaining

Seconded. that's it, men.

Abyss wrote:Oddly enough I got banned from metal archives for anti ultraboris sabotage on the metallica page, another user and I added a release called ultraboris loves s/t anger or something to that effect , one of his friends over at metal archives says he is no longer involved in the metal scene so I hope to never see any bullshit reviews from him again.