Nazis in (extreme) Metal

[Helm]

But really, you think there is some deep meaning to all the metal you like? Meaning not only of your own making?

Well that can be debated to length but my short answer is : maybe.

but it is about taste, not some universal truth.

Yes. I never claimed otherwise. Please try, when discussing with people you don't know well, to not reach towards the worst interpretation of what they might be saying. My opinion is a moderate one and I don't think I should have to defend or distance myself from extremes I never endorsed, just because you've ran into them in the past and have had this tired discussion a lot.

What it boils down to is you don't agree with them, after which you critisize them for lack of vision and song-writing skills, which I can't take seriously, it doesn't so much matter whether you like them or not but coming up with rather silly accusations like that is unnecessary.

See here is a useful improvement on this 'end of discussion' point of view: why don't I like them? That is the question you should be asking, that is, if you're interested in a dialogue. Of course its a matter of opinion, but my argumentation might or might not be illuminating for you if you'd ask to hear it instead of assuming and blanketing. 'You just don't like it, end of story'. What does this even mean? Surely there are reasons for my dislike. They have to do with my understanding of vision and capability and honesty and passion and if that sort of stuff bores you to hear - perhaps understandably - then you shouldn't engage in a dialogue with me. But if you do, please give me the benefit of not playing the part of your strawman.

So, their fault is not their opinions, it is in having the skills (on all levels, songwriting, presentation, aesthetics) to make me care for their point of view as a human being. I am not very close politically to let's say the political beliefs of mister Vikerness but he happened to have the ability to make me care for what Burzum were about. Arghoslent do not. They might play exuberant heavy metal riffs left and right but the core of the band appears very tired to me, very jaded, very cynical (as seen in the interview also). As if going through the motions. I guess a decade of despondency trapped in a racist skinhead black metal scene will do that to you! There is no innocence in Argoslent and no humanity, and these things are important to me when I listen to HM. I'd say that there just is no Heavy Metal without an innocent core. So, as jaded and damaged 30 year old dudes that make rote metal, I appear unable to give a shit about their hate-fuelled music regardless of how many nice riffs are stapled on top. This is the bottom line I've been working towards: there's many things that can fuel a great HM band, usually a combination of superficially disparate feelings do best (like romanticism coupled with nihilism or humanism with atavism) but I don't see that sort of range in the feeling Arghoslent go for. Their lyrics are well made and often attempt to touch on the heroic aspect of war but the complete package doesn't engage like that. It just appears base, yet calculated.

It is not in my opinion an accident that the baseness of emotion is at the core of most 'nazi'esque bands I've listened to over the years. It takes emotionally stunted people generally to hold these racialist views or enjoy constant exposure to them. That Arghoslent are pretty much the best this scene has to offer is telling. I am not so desperate to consume riffs that I'll take theirs part and parcel with what comes with them.

Perhaps now we understand each other better.

[decibelrebel]

The real fact is that ARGHOSLENT don't put politics before music.

As if that excuses their involvement in things like this:
http://www.discogs.com/release/1294548

Quite a bit of filler but amongst it some great stuff on that CD, released by Gelal himself and features some good friends of mine.

['pataphysicien]

good to see the discussions this sparked. imo things like this should be talked about, no matter how often people think they've heard it all.

The real fact is that ARGHOSLENT don't put politics before music.

As if that excuses their involvement in things like this:
http://www.discogs.com/release/1294548

Quite a bit of filler but amongst it some great stuff on that CD, released by Gelal himself and features some good friends of mine.

that just makes me sad. as said Arghoslent have the riffs and atmosphere that make me wish they were not involved in this kind of shit. on "get the rope records". it never ceases to amaze me what boils in peoples heads somewhere on this planet. who knows, maybe having a black president will take away some of those deep fears these people seem to have. from that perspective he probably should have been gay as well. it's a dark world.

I have gay friends and no negative feelings towards homosexuality in any way. some years ago I looked at Anal Cunt song titles (never cared for the sounds) that can be rather harsh in that respect, but had good laughs because the wording was funny to me and I could assume they are tongue in cheek and products of a twisted humor (correct me if this impression is/was wrong). but this stuff looks serious and that's as sad as all racism, sexism, homophobia just is to me. and I would not be able to accept people with the aforementioned "brown" leanings as friends. as I can't accept Arghoslent as a band that can be close to me for more than the sonic qualities of the songs.

and there is taste again. the bands that are REALLY close to me generally have the whole package. passionate and emotional music and lyrical depth - in a way that makes me think, feel and relate. as poetic as Arghoslents lyrics might be, they don't touch me at all on the level of content. rant over.

[Black Axe]

I loathe discriminating lyrics. So whatever the subject, I'll keep away from it.

who knows, maybe having a black president will take away some of those deep fears these people seem to have. from that perspective he probably should have been gay as well. it's a dark world

A gay candidate would never have been elected in the USA though.

I want to put on Die Healing by Saint Vitus now, but I need to go lay down in my coffin for a few hours.

[aaaaag]

to bring in a possibly different perspective in here - how much would this bother you if the "issues" in question were not something that are a part of your social/historical context, things that either you or your society has not experienced directly? If instead of NS-ism, racism, white supremacy, it was say... a band with militant Hindu fundamentalist lyrics, supportng the massacre of Muslims and Christians in India? Would that really bother you that much, more than just on a theoretical level?

I ask because Arghoslent don't bother me at all. All the things that probably disturb you on a gut level are just theoretical to me. I like quite a few NS bands. There are a lot of questions that I can't answer - would it bother me more if these guys actually ran around killing blacks? would it bother me more if they were singing about the British conquering India? I dunno.

You might be interested to know that India has a huge fascination with Hitler. You'll find pirated copies of "Mein Kampf" at pretty much any small book stall, in railway stations, at book fairs, in places where it might be the only non-local language thing available. Swastika (the nazi kind) t shirts and bandanas are sold by rock/metal t-shirt shops alongside shirts with Che Guevara on them. Until very recently there was a restaurant called Hitler's Cross in Bombay. It's just not a "lived reality" here. It's distanced and theoretical. The fact that Hitler would probably have considered Indians untermensch doesn't really factor in at all. I don't know if it's just because we are a very politically/morally apathetic country.

[Helm]

Would that really bother you that much, more than just on a theoretical level?

I think it would bother me as the nazi bands do, which is to say, not very much, but it would be unpleasant unless handled in some surprising manner. I don't care much for bands that are all 'RAR RAR I HATE EVERYBODY HATE YOU HATE HIM AND I HATE THAT OTHER GUY TOO' either when it becomes apparent that the hatred is not an artistic construct but an actual psychopathology shared by the band members.

I'm all for understanding people but in HM it really isn't very interesting for me to examine behind the music to find bigots and idiots...

['pataphysicien]

Would that really bother you that much, more than just on a theoretical level?

I think it would bother me as the nazi bands do, which is to say, not very much, but it would be unpleasant unless handled in some surprising manner.

I'm all for understanding people but in HM it really isn't very interesting for me to examine behind the music to find bigots and idiots...

I agree on the first one, but I would add that cultural, geographical and historical distance might at the face of it make the topics seem less offensive. which of course does not make a moral point, it just shows how humans are equipped psychologically.

for me the real point is not only the message but the sender. the message is usually judged by our relationship to who we make out as the sender. if the sender gets the attribute 'racist' and the lyrics are clearly 'racist', well the case is pretty much clear. now you can go through the setups, sender racist, lyrics nonracist; sender nonracist, lyrics racist; sender nonracist, lyrics nonracist. of course the categories are often uncertain or fuzzy around the edges and that's where it gets most complicated to make up ones mind. in that sense it is good that Arghoslent can be clearly sorted. but honestly, if nowadays death metal sounded more like them I would listen to more nowadays death metal.

btw, anybody know of any soundalikes?

[Noisenik]

You might be interested to know that India has a huge fascination with Hitler. You'll find pirated copies of "Mein Kampf" at pretty much any small book stall, in railway stations, at book fairs, in places where it might be the only non-local language thing available. Swastika (the nazi kind) t shirts and bandanas are sold by rock/metal t-shirt shops alongside shirts with Che Guevara on them. Until very recently there was a restaurant called Hitler's Cross in Bombay. It's just not a "lived reality" here. It's distanced and theoretical.

Interesting ... but it's true, until one hasn't experienced anything similar. although India experienced occupation.

The fact that Hitler would probably have considered Indians untermensch doesn't really factor in at all.

You bet he would ...

I don't know if it's just because we are a very politically/morally apathetic country.

Another interesting info. I guess nation needs a shock therapy, but beware of one.

[FuneralCircle]

There are far better bands than ARGHOSLENT, and I don't need to torment myself over feeling guilt when listening to them. Also, I feel their music, although good, is quite uneven at times, and the only album I can really listen to from beginning to end is Galloping Through the Battle Ruins, and that is a challenge in and out of itself.

And their lyrics shouldn't bother people because of "political" correctness. They state some pretty pseudo-scientific bullshit in there such as "hereditary taints" and other bullshit like that. I've also talked with POGROM from the band many times, he's ridiculous.

[The Erlking]

http://www.anus.com/metal/about/metal/n ... _1998.html

Everything that the genre stood for is dead, and this is significant because before these Norwegians, "black metal" was a joke term for Satanist bands like Venom and Mercyful Fate who were selling a paltry amount of records with their primitive heavy metal/blues/rock/punk sound and outrageous non-serious lyrics. Anyone who has listened to this stuff for some time realizes that it gets old quickly, as did most of the metal of the 1980s which had a lot of anger and energy but no connection to any long-term vision, or for lack of a better word, "solution."

Black metal from Norway changed all of that. Grandeur, epic and sweeping songs, and a sense of heroic honor and justice for nature and the cultures of the ancients emerged from what was at first a few alienated kids trying to make a go of it.

Wow! What a load of bullshit! Ofcourse I've heard this kind of crap before. That the Heavy Metal developed into something which can be "taken seriously" only in 90s and the stuff made before is simple, silly etc.

[Black Axe]

Well, who would be dumb enough to take anything serious posted on a website called anus.

[Ernest Thesiger]

Well, who would be dumb enough to take anything serious posted on a website called anus.

Or anything ever written by Spin*za R*y Pr*zak?

[Cochino]

Like later Dimmu Borgir, which essentially shuffled and regurgitated Judas Priest riffs with black metal vocals and fast drumming with keyboards

[Stormspell]

Well, "epic and grandeur" Norwegian black maybe way too cool for 13yo anus readers with Pinocchio t-shirts, or your average fatso with kalashnikov, but I'll take early Mercyful Fate over any Dimmu Borgir any day, any time, and then some.

[Black Axe]

but I'll take early Mercyful Fate over any Dimmu Borgir any day, any time, and then some.

If that wasn't the case, you wouldn't belong here.