Buying Metal Online

ION BRITTON · Post by **ION BRITTON** » Thu Jan 03, 2008 9:24 am

It just pisses me off when someone tries to justify someone selling bootlegs, and blame others for doing the same.

It pisses me off too. Very much. I started commenting on Shadow Kingdom's post on Sonic Age, thus going off-topic, neither because i approve bootlegs nor because i have something personal with King Fowley, but this is a thing i hate so much: trying to justify one's illegal activity and blaming all other's for doing the same thing. There is NO excuse whatever the case is. I don't like what Sonic Age is doing on this matter and i'm not supporting it in any case, i made my posts the way someone who wants to justify a bootleg release would make, probably you understood that.

"for the love of music" is one of the lamest and sorriest excuses for justifying a bootleg I've ever heard. Essentially it is the motto for people like Sam McCaslin (aka vegascds, themetalkingdom) which have build entore careers of making and sellng bootlegs. If you make a bootleg and sell it for money, there's no excuse, no matter why are you doing it, or if you claim you dont make money out of it!

Quoted for truth.

Making 500 or 1000 silverpessed CDs these days cost no more than $1 - $1.50 per unit to manufacture, especially for the cheap one-two page insert and no licensing fees and royalties included. So if you see a bootleg sold for more than $1.50 , then you should know the person is making a profit, regardless what he tells you, period!

This obviously answers all the questions on both this and the previous thread. Nothing more to add.

Shadow Kingdom · Post by **Shadow Kingdom** » Thu Jan 03, 2008 11:06 am

I don't understand why some of you guys/gals are standing up for Sonic Age and their illegal practices. No one even mentioned that they were selling all those bootlegs not only in the store, but on ebay and PASSING THEM OFF AS ORIGINAL PRESSINGS!!!!! That completely goes against "the love of metal" and the underground.

BULLSHIT... They're all about the MONEY. I saw what those auctions were going for... THEY MADE THOUSANDS AND THOUSANDS RIPPING PEOPLE OFF... That's NOT cool at all....

If you're gonna sell a bootleg, selling them at COST is for the "LOVE OF MUSIC"

Besides that horseshit, they make great releases and I support those release for the band's sake... and they've always sent out my packages with no problems.

ION BRITTON · Post by **ION BRITTON** » Thu Jan 03, 2008 11:28 am

Shadow Kingdom wrote: If you're gonna sell a bootleg, selling them at COST is for the "LOVE OF MUSIC"

Who did this? Who sold bootleg CDs at 2-3$? Can't think of anyone.

Stormspell · Post by **Stormspell** » Thu Jan 03, 2008 11:40 am

@ION BRITTON: I know, I did. I just let myself vent too much on this sore issue. I know all you guys are passionate metalheads and none of you are supporting bootlegs, so please accept my apologies if I have offended you, BlackStele, or anyone else. My rant was general and in the heat of the moment, not against anyone in particular.

@Tim: yeah, I forgot about those eBay sales. Though, I have to admit Manos have been called on this, and stepped out and apologized for this on Miskatonic board, and hasnt sold any on eBay after that. So kudos to him for doing that!

Shadow Kingdom · Post by **Shadow Kingdom** » Thu Jan 03, 2008 1:01 pm

ION BRITTON wrote:
Shadow Kingdom wrote: If you're gonna sell a bootleg, selling them at COST is for the "LOVE OF MUSIC"
Who did this? Who sold bootleg CDs at 2-3$? Can't think of anyone.

Exactly. No one is making bootlegs for just the "LOVE OF MUSIC".

Shadow Kingdom · Post by **Shadow Kingdom** » Thu Jan 03, 2008 1:09 pm

stormspell wrote:@ION BRITTON: I know, I did. I just let myself vent too much on this sore issue. I know all you guys are passionate metalheads and none of you are supporting bootlegs, so please accept my apologies if I have offended you, BlackStele, or anyone else. My rant was general and in the heat of the moment, not against anyone in particular.

@Tim: yeah, I forgot about those eBay sales. Though, I have to admit Manos have been called on this, and stepped out and apologized for this on Miskatonic board, and hasnt sold any on eBay after that. So kudos to him for doing that!

I wonder how someone could afford to release so much so quickly, NOW I KNOW! He was RIPPING OFF THOUSANDS AND THOUSANDS AND THOUSANDS OF DOLLARS to metalheads that didn't have a clue between original and bootleg,

I still don't see any real effort to get rid of all the ones that are still in his store....

BlackStele · Post by **BlackStele** » Thu Jan 03, 2008 2:13 pm

stormspell wrote:
BlackStele wrote:Well, I know these people for a long time, and I've made huge orders from them, and I will continue so, cause besides all they never caused any prob to me, everything arrived on time, in great contition, and always have a huge variety of underground material. After all, they are dedicated to Metal, and they have NOTHING to do with the illegal bootleg"circuit"...others"make"them, and some others(badly, bad they do) sell them..this is a part of their job, and is necessary for them to do so...I DON'T APPROVE IT, but I won't accuse them for anything, cause the Evil root is elsewhere...so, if we want to do sth for this"plague" we can just STOP buying boots, without accusing honest people who have dedicated their Lifes to Metal...
I tried to stay clear from this topic, but do you understand how hypocritical your posting sounds? Blame the ones that make the bootlegs, and dont blame the people that are spreading them around by SELLING them for money?

Yes, both Kostas and Manos are great people and their releases are top-notch all the way, but selling bootlegs IS selling bootlegs and is unexcusable, whatever the reasons.

If it was "part of their job" to sell bootlegs, how come places like Sentinel Steel or Shadow Kingdom never carry those hot-selling booties?

The bottom line is, if you elect to sell those booties, you better be prepared to stand up and take it when you get called. I admire King in this regard because he doesnt hesitate to stand up and admit some of his pressings are boots. I dont approve it, regardless the reasons he may have for doing it, but admire him for beaing stand up guy.

...you seem that you haven't understand ANYTHING from what I posted here...I NEVER SUPPORT ANYONE WHO HELPS BOOTS CIRCULATING AROUND THE GLOB, I just tried to make some people see the other side of the coin...you just included it in your aggressive reply...haven't you read CAREFULLY my whole post?? Look, I think my message was clear: Metalheads SHOULD have the Knowledge to avoid in any case bootlegs, and instead of blaming someone(WHO WRONGLY I SAID) is selling boots, must strike this"plague" STRAIGHT in its root...you know very well what I mean, don't you really??

Black Axe · Post by **Black Axe** » Thu Jan 03, 2008 6:27 pm

stormspell wrote:I tried to stay clear from this topic, but do you understand how hypocritical your posting sounds? Blame the ones that make the bootlegs, and dont blame the people that are spreading them around by SELLING them for money?

You are selling a bootleg in your distro too if I remember well(Warrior's Live In A Dive CD).

Stormspell · Post by **Stormspell** » Thu Jan 03, 2008 11:37 pm

Black Axe wrote:You are selling a bootleg in your distro too if I remember well(Warrior's Live In A Dive CD).

The label assured me it is a legit release. I had my doubts, but then tlaked to Gorgon and they confirmed their release is 100% legit, so I gave the benefit of the doubt to Warrior release. If, however, I get solid proof it was indeed a bootleg, I'll never tade with this label again.

The bottom line is, with all this bootleg shit around, even if you do your homework and try to figure out what is legit and what is not, you always will end up getting some bootlegs for your trades. I have here two boxes full with such shit from unfortunate trades. I've given a good legit shit for those, but I'm ending eating it up - which hurts me a lot coz I'm very small struggling label and every penny counts.

Nobody is perfect, and I'm very far away from the thought I'm perfect too. But at least I do make the effort not to stock and sell bootlegs as best to my knowledge, regardless how cheap I can obtain them, and how hot and good sellers they would be. I'm sure everyone would love making quick profit, me included, but one has to draw a line on how to conduct their own business. It is a personal decision everyone has to make for themselves.

Stormspell · Post by **Stormspell** » Thu Jan 03, 2008 11:44 pm

BlackStele wrote:...you seem that you haven't understand ANYTHING from what I posted here...I NEVER SUPPORT ANYONE WHO HELPS BOOTS CIRCULATING AROUND THE GLOB, I just tried to make some people see the other side of the coin...you just included it in your aggressive reply...haven't you read CAREFULLY my whole post?? Look, I think my message was clear: Metalheads SHOULD have the Knowledge to avoid in any case bootlegs, and instead of blaming someone(WHO WRONGLY I SAID) is selling boots, must strike this"plague" STRAIGHT in its root...you know very well what I mean, don't you really??

I still believe everyone should be responsible for their own actions, and if a distro is selling knowingly hundreds of bootlegs, they should stand accountable for it.

But yeah, I see your point now, and apologize for misreading your post earlier.

Shadow Kingdom · Post by **Shadow Kingdom** » Fri Jan 04, 2008 2:55 am

stormspell wrote:
The bottom line is, with all this bootleg shit around, even if you do your homework and try to figure out what is legit and what is not, you always will end up getting some bootlegs for your trades. I have here two boxes full with such shit from unfortunate trades. I've given a good legit shit for those, but I'm ending eating it up - which hurts me a lot coz I'm very small struggling label and every penny counts.

That's correct and atleast places like Eat Metal Records, Stormspell Records, Shadow Kingdom Records, and Sentinel Steel Records (just to name a few) all make efforts to have minimal bootlegs in the store (from what I can tell).... every distro/mailorder has had them in the past (THE END, CENTURY MEDIA, ALL OF THEM), but the problem is that Sonic Age is not doing ANYTHING about it. They said their sorry for ripping off THOUSAND and THOUSANDS of fucking dollars off uninformed EBAYERS, so what! That don't mean shit if they continue to support bootleggers and bootlegging the the highest degree, by still having, what HUNDREDS OF BOOTLEGS in the store? They know who's making these bootlegs too. And that's the big difference in my opinion.

nightsblood · Post by **nightsblood** » Fri Jan 04, 2008 3:52 am

I'm gonna play devil's advocate here for just a moment; I'm not looking to pick on anyone or start a major fight
Sevewral comments have been made about bootleggers ripping off thousands of dollars from people. Not everyone buying bootlegs are victims who are oblivious to the fact that they're buying an unofficial item. Plenty of folks willingly and knowingly pay for bootlegs. THose who buy the item thinking that it is legit can be considered victims. However, it could also be said that it is the buyer's responsibility to do their homework before buying. It's shitty that some folks try to pass off boots as legit items, but it's hardly a new phenomenon; unscrupulous dealers have been trying to sell lemons to people since the birth of commerce. If the item appears suspicious and/or if you are adverse to buying bootlegs under any circumstances, than steer clear.

Shadow Kingdom · Post by **Shadow Kingdom** » Fri Jan 04, 2008 4:38 am

That's true and I agree with you.. some people will pay high dollar for bootlegs... and this is why bootleggers are still in business...

But... the main problem I had with Sonic Age is that they willingly LIED on ebay saying they were ORIGINAL PRESSINGS to get super high bids. They LIED in order to make THOUSANDS OF DOLLARS (big difference), which is worse than what they're still doing now, which is selling hundreds of cheaply pressed bootlegs.

hload · Post by **hload** » Fri Jan 04, 2008 8:29 am

sonic age records is a legit label. i could care the less of their mailorder. on the other hand old metal records released many crappy pressed bootlegs "for the love of music"....

hahaha, it's also amusing the fact that, according to the mathematicians who used some non-eukleidian, aparametric methods of analysis of covariance, at least 600 cds out of the approximately 1200 which are for sale now from sonic age mailorder are boots....

Shadow Kingdom · Post by **Shadow Kingdom** » Fri Jan 04, 2008 9:30 am

hload wrote:sonic age records is a legit label.

What's this all about then?

http://p200.ezboard.com/CEREBUS--TOO-LA ... 1148.topic

Did they contact the band for this release or what?