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I think we have to forget about calling anything with satanic lyrics black metal regardless whether it's from the 80s or the 90s, this is not enough, the sound has to have also a black, evil feel and the image has to be dark as well. However if black metal is only the sound that was shaped in Norway in the 90s then perhaps none of the 80s bands are black metal, not even some non-norwegian classic 90s bands either, ROTTING CHRIST and NECROMANTIA sound VERY different than EMPEROR and DARKTHRONE, but they are still considered as black metal..Also labeling anything from the 90s as a cheap BATHORY rip-off is at least ignorant IMO and it means that whoever says that hasn't paid any attention to the music at all. BATHORY were influential, but not all bands aped them..It's like calling MAIDEN a total WISHBONE ASH rip-off, it's just not right. However if we stretch the term a bit and without focusing only on 90s norwegian sound, then some of the 80s bands that have been mentioned can actually be considered as black metal. RUNNING WILD is one of them, SATANS HOST as well. But in that sense CLOVEN HOOF (of the 1st album only), for example, don't fit the bill, just not as dark soundwise as the other bands.

Well, being serious I think only Sarcógafo would qualify as Black Metal. All the rest of the bands aren't, although some like Venom, Mercyful Fate or Celtic Frost can be seen as more influential on the genre than Running Wild. I think the "first wave" would be mostly Mayhem and maybe some Bathory. That's where the actual roots of Black Metal as a genre are in my opinion.

SATANS HOST didn't influence anyone yet they were infinately more evil and satanic than 80% of the 90s BM bands. I don't see the reason why we should stick only to the usual bands that all black metal bands mention as their influences.
Anyway, it's something that we can't all agree, point is if you get your kicks out of something, you listen to it and it doesn't matter whether it's black, white, purple or red

roihlem wrote:
Just a bit "off-topic", am I the only one who thinks that second wave BM has more similarities to old HC than to old Metal?

Old Hardcore Punk has A LOT to do with Black Metal. It's just obvious in fact, but many (ignorant) metalheads spit on Hardcore (cause they think hardcore = vegetarian bald hippie with piercing and baggy....).


If we take 2 albums as a "demonstration" haha:

BLACK FLAG, "Damaged": minimalism, rawness, hate, short tracks, no effects, anger, fuck off attitude

DARKTHRONE, "Transilvanian Hunger": minimalism, rawness, hate, short tracks, no effects, anger, fuck off attitude


And more than that, I always found manyyy similarities between Tom G Warrior's riffs and Hardcore. Maybe because both are intense RYTHM which are made to be extremely catchy.

Also, "Scum" by NAPALM DEATH (grindcore, belonging to/coming from Hardcore Punk scene) have a MEGA-Celtic Frost feeling.

Anyway, for me things are really simple: Metal = Punk. Same shit, influencing each others since 3 decades and continues to copulate in filth.

ION BRITTON: Regarding the Greek bands, I always find that they were mixing a big dose of Heavy Metal in their Black Metal.

J.K. wrote:

roihlem wrote:
Just a bit "off-topic", am I the only one who thinks that second wave BM has more similarities to old HC than to old Metal?

Old Hardcore Punk has A LOT to do with Black Metal. It's just obvious in fact, but many (ignorant) metalheads spit on Hardcore (cause they think hardcore = vegetarian bald hippie with piercing and baggy....).


If we take 2 albums as a "demonstration" haha:

BLACK FLAG, "Damaged": minimalism, rawness, hate, short tracks, no effects, anger, fuck off attitude

DARKTHRONE, "Transilvanian Hunger": minimalism, rawness, hate, short tracks, no effects, anger, fuck off attitude

proven point about the lack of originality out of the" second wave of black metal panda kvlt"...not that is wrong, but its part of the big discussion in this thread

and yea, first Mayhem recordings are more about being grindcore than Venom worship gone lower budget, fact.

lol...

That doesn't mean they invented nothing ! They were TOTALLY orignal, just got common points.

But I guess you are not really objective, using words such as "kvlt" and "panda".

J.K. wrote: But I guess you are not really objective, using words such as "kvlt" and "panda".

is it possible to be objective and serious when we talk about the 98.5% bands that came after the 80s playing black metal?

Why not ?

You obviously don't like this style, it's not my case. It's true that the nineties saw many crappy sub-genre of Black Metal but the classics are... the classics. And they are awesome.

J.K. wrote:Why not ?

You obviously don't like this style, it's not my case. It's true that the nineties saw many crappy sub-genre of Black Metal but the classics are... the classics. And they are awesome.

i like the style quiet a bit, and im pretty sure i have the same classics you are referring too...i do have first Drakthrone stuff, but i refuse to take seriously their million other clones. i´m a big Dissection fan too

ION BRITTON wrote:SATANS HOST didn't influence anyone yet they were infinately more evil and satanic than 80% of the 90s BM bands. I don't see the reason why we should stick only to the usual bands that all black metal bands mention as their influences.
Anyway, it's something that we can't all agree, point is if you get your kicks out of something, you listen to it and it doesn't matter whether it's black, white, purple or red

Sure, I totally agree with that. In my opinion Mercyful Fate's demos are much more evil than pretty much anything else ever recorded and probably their live shows had much more atmosphere than any BM show. I was just talking about the sound, which obviously got started with Mayhem. Of course Mayhem were influenced by other bands, even from punk and grindcore bands, but calling any bands of those genres "Black" just because they influenced Mayhem would be silly, as well as calling "Black" to any band with satanic lyrics IF WE'RE TALKING ABOUT BM AS A GENRE. When I first read this thread I thought it was just an exercise in anachronism and we would use the "black metal" label as it was used in the early 80s, and with that in mind Satan's Host, Mercyful Fate and most of the other bands mentioned here would absolutely qualify.

J.K. wrote:And more than that, I always found manyyy similarities between Tom G Warrior's riffs and Hardcore. Maybe because both are intense RYTHM which are made to be extremely catchy.

yes - the sheer terror 85 demo is just frost riffs all the way through, fucking great shit

Yeah, there are plenty of bands that sound like a mix of Celtic Frost and Hardcore, like Obituary or Jim Jones and the Kool-Ade Kids in their "Trust Me" album (I haven't heard anything else by them but that album is fucking great). I do think that punk had a major influence on BM even if some deny it. Even newer and more "bestial" bands such as Blasphemy owe a lot to Hardcore/Punk.

Cochino wrote:Yeah, there are plenty of bands that sound like a mix of Celtic Frost and Hardcore, like Obituary or Jim Jones and the Kool-Ade Kids in their "Trust Me" album (I haven't heard anything else by them but that album is fucking great). I do think that punk had a major influence on BM even if some deny it. Even newer and more "bestial" bands such as Blasphemy owe a lot to Hardcore/Punk.

i honestly dont care about hardcore and punk music, not that i hate it,simple not my kind of music........ but on the other side i love Blasphemy

"bestial" stuffs like Blasphemy etc. owes more to Grindcore than oldschool Hardcore.


Also, listen to that, bang your head and... whatever. How could someone don't like that ? lol simple, natural, catchy and TRUE

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zo_HqCvp ... re=related

Note that Hardcore, as BM, like to be "true" and have a life code, hehehe (so in a way, Heavy Metal too...)


As for Celtic Frost I wander sometimes if it's not our Dear Thomas Gabriel that has "copied" the early HC from late 70/beginning of 80. We will probably never know cause this is like the "who came first, egg or chicken". But the fact is that 90% of oldschool hardcore remind me of Celtic Frost (maybe It's just me).