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Struggling to make ends meet is being poor.
Not being able to put food in your mouth is what we'd say 'living below the poverty line'.

I certainly don't think most metalheads I've met are poor. And never below the poverty line unless disaster has struck. What they are, almost predominantly so, is unsuccessful in the "high paying job, a great car a wife and a mistress" sort of consumerist view of success. I think anyone that has had a real passion for any sort of art and who has let it alter their being fundamentally then is effectively bored of the ant race. It's not just metalheads, it's anyone fortified by true passion for something outside of their own base drives.

It's funny how most of you (including the thread starter) associate being poor with wealth.

I'll go as far as to say education, class, country you reside in and of course being a materialistic poser come into major play.

Well I think he started the thread with the direct intention to discuss that type of materialistic poor hence why I think most people have continued talking about it. It has nothing to do the darker sides of poverty which I doubt effects any of us who post here (We probably wouldn't have internet conenctions if this was the case).

Astaroth wrote:It's funny how most of you (including the thread starter) associate being poor with wealth.

I'll go as far as to say education, class, country you reside in and of course being a materialistic poser come into major play.

Wait... isn't poverty the opposite of wealth? That's a quite logic association then?

As for my opinon about the reason for metal heads being poor, well - I'd say the "outsider attitude" adds a lot to it as well, regardless of the factors Astaroth listed above (I fully agree with them). I simply think that many metal heads, well educated or not, find the stock market, real estate investments etc, etc, pretty dull and uninteresting, hence they don't take part in the ways to get rich in todays' society. There's also a strong dedication to certain metal or underground "rules" making it more or less impossible to gain credibility in certain circles if one has a lifestyle too far away from what's accepted among metal heads (such as working in a bank, see movie "More Bad News").

Also these fuckin' big record collections make metal heads pretty immobile and mobility is a must if one wants to earn $$$ I assume.

Nightlock wrote:

decibelrebel wrote:Metalheads are usually cash-strapped because they're materialistic posers who live beyond their means.

Money comes and goes, I don't care that much about it, though it's not bad by any means. I don't think people that use their money to buy records are "materialistic posers" well they may be in some cases. Why do you think doing this makes them that way? Should they be spending their money on a car or house investment?

Hmm, usually I’m a hit & run kinda guy and I don’t give any thought about my posts once they’re made but curiosity brought me back here before the thread was buried by time & dust so to expand on a few things:

The thread topic invited personal opinion into discussion and from MY observations and experiences I think my previous comment is valid, your opinion is yours and I wouldn’t ask you to justify it, nor attempt to persuade you into changing it.

Trawling through your post history its clear we are coming from & heading in different directions, our common interest is heavy metal and that is all so it’s no surprise we will disagree.

Some may notice I used the term cash-strapped rather than poor, simply because I believe most ‘Metalheads’ financial woes are self-inflicted. Many want more than they can afford, or to confirm my initial statement ‘live beyond their means’. Turning of One's computer for a few weeks will do wonders for their bank account, but hours on end sifting through forums/distros/ebay and tempting One's self will most certainly bring a feeling of being financially inadequate.

Nothing derogatory intended toward this forum or its members but I do feel this forum and several others like it provide reasonable evidence to back up my statement regarding materialism. Take for example when someone posts about a recent purchase, how often do we see the first inquisitive post being about how much it cost rather than something innocent like ‘what’s your favourite track’… Oh, and then come the threads/posts beginning with “I NEED…..!!!!!!!” Reeking of a desperation and urgency that if this item isn’t obtained a.s.a.p the world as you know it will cease to exist, fact is we don’t NEED it, sure it may be a great item to own and listen to but NEED it, c’mon.

Park the collector mentality for 2 minutes, step back and try to identify the statement that doesn’t belong:
I NEED to shit
I NEED the seeds to germinate or my crop won’t yield
I NEED water
I NEED a 25yr demotape/LP from some band that never made it because at the time they weren’t good enough & only in hindsight is their undiscovered genius truly realised! (also must be original press/mint/unplayed with all inserts and smell like the factory it was pressed in rather than your house).

So as far as being materialistic is concerned I think I’ve addressed that in more than enough detail. As for ‘posers’, well you live in Melbourne too so look around, the evidence to substantiate that remark is there in spades...

decibelrebel wrote: I NEED a 25yr demotape/LP from some band that never made it because at the time they weren’t good enough & only in hindsight is their undiscovered genius truly realised! (also must be original press/mint/unplayed with all inserts and smell like the factory it was pressed in rather than your house).

I fully agree.
But an example far worse is the NWN!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! forum where the discussions about demo and different vinyl and CD pressings usually reach pathetic levels. Pretty funny reading though!

So what, I'm materialistic as far as metal vinyl goes. Doesn't define me as a person in all other aspects. I don't feel any shame at all admitting I need the records, and yeah I NEED them, I have nightmares and all kinds of other shit about records, psychologically I need that, addiction; sure. Worried? Fuck no, more like happy.

decibelrebel wrote:

Nightlock wrote:

decibelrebel wrote:Metalheads are usually cash-strapped because they're materialistic posers who live beyond their means.

Money comes and goes, I don't care that much about it, though it's not bad by any means. I don't think people that use their money to buy records are "materialistic posers" well they may be in some cases. Why do you think doing this makes them that way? Should they be spending their money on a car or house investment?

Hmm, usually I’m a hit & run kinda guy and I don’t give any thought about my posts once they’re made but curiosity brought me back here before the thread was buried by time & dust so to expand on a few things:

The thread topic invited personal opinion into discussion and from MY observations and experiences I think my previous comment is valid, your opinion is yours and I wouldn’t ask you to justify it, nor attempt to persuade you into changing it.

Trawling through your post history its clear we are coming from & heading in different directions, our common interest is heavy metal and that is all so it’s no surprise we will disagree.

Some may notice I used the term cash-strapped rather than poor, simply because I believe most ‘Metalheads’ financial woes are self-inflicted. Many want more than they can afford, or to confirm my initial statement ‘live beyond their means’. Turning of One's computer for a few weeks will do wonders for their bank account, but hours on end sifting through forums/distros/ebay and tempting One's self will most certainly bring a feeling of being financially inadequate.

Nothing derogatory intended toward this forum or its members but I do feel this forum and several others like it provide reasonable evidence to back up my statement regarding materialism. Take for example when someone posts about a recent purchase, how often do we see the first inquisitive post being about how much it cost rather than something innocent like ‘what’s your favourite track’… Oh, and then come the threads/posts beginning with “I NEED…..!!!!!!!” Reeking of a desperation and urgency that if this item isn’t obtained a.s.a.p the world as you know it will cease to exist, fact is we don’t NEED it, sure it may be a great item to own and listen to but NEED it, c’mon.

Park the collector mentality for 2 minutes, step back and try to identify the statement that doesn’t belong:
I NEED to shit
I NEED the seeds to germinate or my crop won’t yield
I NEED water
I NEED a 25yr demotape/LP from some band that never made it because at the time they weren’t good enough & only in hindsight is their undiscovered genius truly realised! (also must be original press/mint/unplayed with all inserts and smell like the factory it was pressed in rather than your house).

So as far as being materialistic is concerned I think I’ve addressed that in more than enough detail. As for ‘posers’, well you live in Melbourne too so look around, the evidence to substantiate that remark is there in spades...

I agree with you for the most part I really do and thank you for elaborating on your view I've noticed your posts are usually "hit and run" style and appreciate you taking the time to post a reply. I hope my initial post didn't come across at all like I'm trying to attack you or your opinion I just wanted to see it elaborated on as it came across fairly blunt.

Some of your examples could be directly taken from my posts especially the "Need" comment. I don't need rare records, I do however use the word not so literally to express my (sometimes obsessive) love for the music and wishing to own a physical copy of the item. To be honest with you I thought it would be interpreted in a more non-literal way because I really just use the word to emphasis my passion for the album or piece being discussed.

This being said of course I'm almost definitely willing to pay more for an item than you are judging by your previous posts. Sometimes putting myself in financial instability. But as I mentioned in my first post; I identify this as a problem (and don't think I whine too much about it -Though if I do please tell me).

As for the recent big metal haul I posted in the haul thread (Which could compared to your materialistic Vs. Innocent love argument). I can guarantee that I have opinions and observations very specific about all of those albums. I don't love all of them on the same super high level, but all of the LP's in that bunch I at least think are better than good and have defining moments of greatness. A type of metalhead collector that I don't understand is the one who seems to have a manically huge collection of heavy metal and seems to love it all on the same (well almost) level. They're usually not able to speak of the music in a very descriptive way noting down the smaller detailed factors of beauty. I love (perhaps too much) analysing beauty and forming forward thinking ideas and concepts about music.

In fact it really scares me that if I continue collecting the way I am that I may end up that way and uncontempt with music (This is why I think a lot of collectors one day make that 360 decision and sell their collections in favour for a more balanced meaningful life). The only logical way I can see getting around this is to become more critical towards music like Helm is with his "only essential" philosophy. It's hard to get on to that path though when you've got obsessive tendencies and want to experience everything above average not willing to accept only essential. I'll have to make the move sometime if I want to survive and keep this interest for music though. Otherwise I'll be drowning in a world of average rarely focusing on excellent.

Way I feel like I've just written two paragraphs of crap , I hope you understand me and me thought patterns/reasonings a little more (even though you stated justification wasn't necessary, it is for me as your opinion matters). I hope I'm not heading too far in a different direction for you to get along with when I was e-mailing Tom at the start of the year he always talked positively about you and I pre-conceived that you'd be a pretty cool person and good to get along with.

About Melbourne and it's "metalhead" community (and this is only speaking of the ones who listen to similar stuff to me) there are some cool guys for sure like Tom, Nick etc. But then there're some guys I know who act like total elitist pricks a lot of the time. I try not to throw around "poseur" too much, though these guys come as close to the meaning of the word as possible in my opinion. It's strange though because they're not your intellectually superior elitists but rather choosing elitism through regression. "You can't be a real metal fan paying that much for a record" "Real metal fans are the crazy ones that are at gigs drinking lots of beer and doing drugs and only listen to the same five albums over and over, that's a real fan". Now I also "Nothing derogatory intended toward" doom metal fans and the people involved with this genre and it's fanbase. But I've often found this type of regressive elitist closely associated with doom metal, especially the fans from Australia. Again this has nothing to do with ALL doom fans I myself adore a lot of doom but a small portion of the fanbase is fucked up.

Hey guys, at the bottom of the line, what's the exact meaning of the word"materialistic"? Does a materialistic person loves money? Then why would he/she spend it for purchasing sth? With what characteristics is this word connected? The feeling of"possession" of sth? A need? An instict? What are the motives that may have a materialist anyway? Does he/she have visions, or ideals? Is this greed? I believe that there's a thin line that distingush vanity from materialism, cause they're two different things, however many confuse them and relate them..

decibelrebel wrote:25yr demotape/LP from some band that never made it because at the time they weren’t good enough & only in hindsight is their undiscovered genius truly realised! (also must be original press/mint/unplayed with all inserts and smell like the factory it was pressed in rather than your house).

This made me laugh hysterically when I read it because it's so over-exaggerated, yet still holds some truth.

Either way, I think that all of us are a little bit guilty of this...

Materialism is a philosophical and economic (dialectic materialism, marxism) viewpoint that has little to do with what we're discussing. Consumerism, which is what we are discussing, is when one believes that in order to be happy they must come into possession of this and this and this and this.

This is in its root naturally an instinctive trait: we need food to be happy, we need a mate, we need a cave, we need safety, we need a lot of things. These things are considered essential. Without them we will die or wither away.

And then we want things that are inessential like huge amounts of cds. The modern disease (and it was an assisted illness, it did not happen on its own) it turning wants into needs. I do suggest the BBC documentary "The Century of Self" for a cursory look at this effect. It is not an innocent process and while we've been also trained, assisted, to shout "WHO ARE YOU THAT QUESTIONS MY LOVE FOR CDS/CARS/WHATEVER" the moment someone calls our wants into question, it doesn't change the fact that most of us in modern western society are bred from the go to be hopelessly consumerist. We develop obsession and we call it passion, our wants are catered to as if they are needs. We do not buy to live, we live to buy.

I think this effect touches on people's collecting habits when it comes to records or whatever else, and it might contribute to the ruination of one's finances. I do not know to what degree this happens, I am certainly not a collector myself, and my own consumerist tendencies are criticised by myself and I attempt to keep them in check. I am even regularily deleting mp3 albums because they're not essential, I don't hoard anything.

I left my original post pretty vague so as to stimulate discussion, and it appears to have worked! Some very interesting replies & directions folks have gone in. Some quick thoughts/replies:

First, 'poor' is of course subjective and a more acurate, but rather unwieldy, thread title would have been 'Why Are So Many Metal Heads Often Strapped for Cash to the Point that They Usually Cannot Purchase Even Moderately Priced Items They Want?" I think the discussoin has been more interesting with 'Poor' in the mix. And for the record, I have known plenty of metal heads that struggle to make ends meet.

Helm- excellent psot regarding Consumerism

Astaroth- of course there are many types of wealth that aren't based on financial capability or the lack thereof (e.g., spiritual wealth). Such forms of 'non-capital wealth' usually do not directly translate into obtaining goods and services to meet our needs and our wants. I think that's why the discussion has gone in the 'wealth = money' direction.

D-Reb- you nailed it on Needs versus Wants. This is a distinction many people don't make that, i suspect, gets them into financial troubles. I keep a pretty strict monthly budget divided into Needs vs Wants and I make sure the Needs are met and the Wants are kept reasonable (with respect to my budget). And no, records do not go under the Needs column on the spreadsheet

Regarding metal elitism, that could be a thread unto itself. It may factor into some people's financial issues if they're buying more than they can afford in an attempt to impress other metal fans. I've always thought there is a huge paradox in Metal (and many underground communities) insofar that they often claim to reject conventional society and its exclusoinary rules and morals, yet quickly develop their own strict guidelines that one must adhere to in order to be accepted. Metal fandom mirrors society alot more than they reject it.

That's all for now, carry on!

Was this thread inspired by the discussion about that Scratch single perhaps?

I know this has already been pointed out, but I don't think that most metalheads are poor and I also think that our perception of what it means to be poor is skewed. My family actually qualifies for certain state assistance (e.g. health care) but we are by no means poor. To be perfectly frank, I could easily have afforded the aforementioned single, but then, it's precisely the fact that I don't make such purchases which enables me to.

Keir wrote:Was this thread inspired by the discussion about that Scratch single perhaps?

yep

I know this has already been pointed out, but I don't think that most metalheads are poor and I also think that our perception of what it means to be poor is skewed.

See my post above.

I could easily have afforded the aforementioned single, but then, it's precisely the fact that I don't make such purchases which enables me to.

The ol' "I could do that, but I don't want to" response- I could also have bought it, but i also didn't want to j/k
Technically people could just keep whipping out the credit card and buying all kinds of albums they want, even at high prices, and I guess some folks do. However, a lot of follks do not and instead just note that:

"I'd like to buy that but I can't afford it right now".

I guess that particular statement, which I see and hear metal fans make all the time, was at the heart of my original (vague) post; why can't metal heads often afford to get an album(s) they want? Several replies have touched on this, while others have taken the topic in other directions, which has also proven interesting.

nightsblood wrote:The ol' "I could do that, but I don't want to" response- I could also have bought it, but i also didn't want to j/k
Technically people could just keep whipping out the credit card and buying all kinds of albums they want, even at high prices, and I guess some folks do.

I see what your saying, but to me if you have to go into debt to buy something then you really can't afford it.