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nightsblood wrote:My 2 cents:
I did not like the s/t Candlemass album; the songwriting was instantly forgettable and I hated the guitar sound on the album. A poor attempt at a return to form. However, I really like KotGI; wile it may be returning to the old formula, IMO it's performed very well and Lowe's vocals sound very inspired, much better than his recent work in Solitude Aeternus (I find both 'Alone' and 'Adagio' kinda disappointing overall; KotGI destroys both those albums with 1 riff tied behind its back ).

I did not like Adagio but Alone slays KotGI and the Candlemass s/t with one riff tied behind its back.

1. Epicus (10/10)
2. Nightfall (10/10)
3. Chapter VI (9/10)
4. Ancient Dreams (9/10)
5. S/T (8/10)
6. King of the Grey Islands (8/10)
7. Tales of Creation (7/10)
8. From the 13th Sun (7/10)
9. Dactylis Glomerata (5/10)

Epicus is the only straight 10 out of 10, a bona fide classic. A best-of CD from Nightfall and Ancient Dreams also gets a very high 9, but these two on their own... 8 or so. Tales of Creation is a high 7, too much filler, beautiful concept. Chapter VI has 3 of the best Candlemass songs on it for me, but it's not all good, I'd go with a 7. From the 13th Sun is a high 7, Dactylis is not very good (6? 5?), S/T gets a generous 3 out of 10 and the new one a 4 or so! Abstract Algebra gets a 9 with a dot on it and I haven't heard the Krux material close enough to tell, but I heard a lot of half-riffs on it so how good can it be?

So basically you resent the two most recent albums just because the have simpler riffs with fewer notes? I guess you are a techno thrash fan for a reason.

Seriously, I find that really strange. It looks even stranger that you prefer Dactylis G ahead of S/T and KOTGI, that's a first for me. I mean, it's not shit but it has neither the melodies nor the atmosphere or the rock solid song writing that make the two latest so stellar albums.

Krux is trippier than Candlemass, very much in the vein of From the 13th Sun. I would give the first Krux album a solid 8 and the second one a 7, with one point drawn off for the horrible production. I would give Abstrakt Algebra a 6 or maybe a 7 if I'm in the right mood. I guess Leif had some different ideas he wanted to realize and I'm glad he did it outside of Candlemass. I enjoy mostly the songs that are the most 'Candlemassy' - namely "Bitter Root" and "Abstrakt Algebra".

Abyss- gotta disagree about 'Alone'. While certainly not terrible, SA seem to have lost their songwriting knack in recent years.

My Candlemass grades:
Epicus A-
Nightfall A
Ancient Dreams A
Tales of Creation A-
Chapter VI B-
Dactylis Glomerata B
From the 13th Sun A-
S/T C-
King of the Grey Islands B+

Nobody ever seems to rate Chapter VI as high as I do.

mordred wrote:Nobody ever seems to rate Chapter VI as high as I do.

It has a few really good songs on it... to be fiar I probably should re-visit it as it's been years since I heard the entire album.

mordred wrote:So basically you resent the two most recent albums just because the have simpler riffs with fewer notes? I guess you are a techno thrash fan for a reason.

Well yes, but it's a bit more complicated than that. LEND ME YOUR EAR:

There's simple riffs that kick my ass. From the 13th Sun is as simple as it comes, but it has spirit, the songs are good, they come together and they work, that record doesn't pretend to be anything it isn't. I don't know Edling personally, and it's really overstepping it for me to theorize as I do but hey, we're HM fans, in a HM forum, what else are we supposed to do? I think Leif felt embarrassed about heavy metal right around 1992 or so, like most of the remaining metal scene. He felt embarrassed for the teenage fantasy aspect of it, and whereas I'd disagree with such a point of view I understand it. Now if an iconic HM musician has that happen to him, he has a few choices left. Think of it as the Bruce Di... no wait, the Halford Option: he can badmouth metal, start listening to alternative rock, make an industrial album, swear off his past and try to be modern and current. Of all these things to my knowledge, Leif did all but the first one, I've never heard a statement of his against HM on the whole. But his musical endeavors after the initial dissolution of Candlemass have all been left-field, and all the better for it. Abstract Algebra is so 90's metal it HURTS (in a good way). The record tackles thematics that 80's HM never did, it's wide in scope and execution, it's industrially tinged, generally, it's not Candlemass in any way. Dactylis and From The 13th Sun aren't either. This isn't 80's metal, and it TANKED. Nobody cared about these records, Edling lost industry cred, and can you imagine how tired he was of hearing 'not as good as Nightfall', 'make another Epicus'?

So here comes part the second of the Halford Option: put on the metaphorical leather, pull a 'just kidding guys, lol, I was aways METAL' make a few solo records with you on a harley on the cover, rejoin (or resurrect) the 'spirit' of your old band, only now it's a tired pastiche of self-aware cliche and half-assed execution. Krux put him on the map again, and the S/T, oh god, I was really excited about that record and I read in interviews "it's got a bit of everything, some heavy parts for the old fans and more modern parts for the new guys" ugh.

What is a half-riff? It's literally taking the inspiration, the artistry and the thought that goes into making a single great Heavy Metal riff, and chopping it in two, throwing away the coda of the phrase. You can try this in your mind, take the riff from 'Solitude', I am sure you don't even have to put on the record, and repeat just the first part of the riff in your head. Dun Dun dunduuuun DUN. That's it, repeat ad infinitum. You're listening to S/T and KotGI right there. Half-riffs, half-songs, half-assed, half a record, AWFUL LYRICS. And you know it: if you've made Epicus Doomicus Metallicus, two 'half-a-records' don't a full record of that caliber make.

His heart is not into it, it is clear to me, and I wish Edling would free himself of the Candlemass curse. I'd gladly listen to stuff he makes in any other context, they don't have to be 'epic' and 'doom' if he no longer feels it. So it's not that I want more notes to be happy because I am into technothrash. It's that I want EFFORT and DETERMINATION. But he will keep on making half-assed Candlemass records because apparently there is an audience for them and I think that's the worst thing that can happen to an artist: to be rewarded for mediocrity, when every time he tried to push the envelope in the last 10 years he was slapped for it. Baaad pavlov makes for bad metal.

I hear what you're saying. I read it all, and I understand what it says. I'm not retarded or anything. It's just that I can't possibly apply what you are saying on the new Candlemass albums.

Actually:

Helm wrote:... is as simple as it comes, but it has spirit, the songs are good, they come together and they work, that record doesn't pretend to be anything it isn't.

- There, you're describing S/T and KotGI right there! Whereas 13th sun is actually pretending to be a Sabbath record, which it obviously isn't...

I think your assumptions about Edling's 90's endeavours and him feeling guilty for metal is quite far from the truth. If I'm not mistaken he considered Abstrakt Algebra to be a mix of Rush, Mercyful Fate and Candlemass. His gods were always Black Sabbath and Trouble and I don't think he ever saw a reason for himself to feel guilty about 80's metal.

Another quote I need to comment on:

Helm wrote:His heart is not into it, it is clear to me, and I wish Edling would free himself of the Candlemass curse. I'd gladly listen to stuff he makes in any other context, they don't have to be 'epic' and 'doom' if he no longer feels it. So it's not that I want more notes to be happy because I am into technothrash. It's that I want EFFORT and DETERMINATION.

Firstly: there is no questioning Leif Edling's doom integrity. Every Candlemass album has been doom. Both Krux albums are doom. The Nemesis EP was doom. Even a few Abstrakt Algebra songs were doom. Heck, his first band Witchcraft played doom already in 1981, and he hasn't looked back since.
Secondly: you may not like the newer Candlemass albums, but his heart is into it and there's a lot of effort and determination. One man's efforts can hardly please everyone, but just because it doens't please you doesn't mean the effort isn't there.

Helm wrote:But he will keep on making half-assed Candlemass records because apparently there is an audience for them and I think that's the worst thing that can happen to an artist: to be rewarded for mediocrity, when every time he tried to push the envelope in the last 10 years he was slapped for it.

This argument would have made perfect sense if Abstrakt Algebra and Dactylis Glomerata had been monstrous records and subsequent Candlemass albums had been inferior. That is not the case however, it's the other way round.

mordred wrote:I hear what you're saying. I read it all, and I understand what it says. I'm not retarded or anything. It's just that I can't possibly apply what you are saying on the new Candlemass albums.

Well yes, if you like it you like it and I'm not trying to make you not like it. Just making conversation (and yeah, it gets my goat that Candlemass aren't as stellar a band as I'd like them to be!)

- There, you're describing S/T and KotGI right there! Whereas 13th sun is actually pretending to be a Sabbath record, which it obviously isn't...

But that's the thing: he felt like making a Sabbath record, and he did, and it's good. Now he's making Candlemass-copying-Candlemass records, and it shows that it's a tired procedure for me.

Firstly: there is no questioning Leif Edling's doom integrity.

Candlemass are legends, sure. But your integrity (not your doom cred) comes down to how convincing your last record was, and I ain't convinced. You are, and we can agree to disagree, but I don't care if you've made 100 of the best doom records ever, if your newest one is phoned in, I will call you on it.

This argument would have made perfect sense if Abstrakt Algebra and Dactylis Glomerata had been monstrous records and subsequent Candlemass albums had been inferior. That is not the case however, it's the other way round.

Abstrakt Algebra (which I finally managed to bypass my spell-checker to write correctly ) and From The 13th Sun easily piss over the latter material in my opinion. Again, we disagree, just trying to be lucid about this and not degenerate to gnarl nagrl hate hate hate hate!!

Helm wrote:But that's the thing: he felt like making a Sabbath record, and he did, and it's good. Now he's making Candlemass-copying-Candlemass records, and it shows that it's a tired procedure for me.

I'm not trying to slag off 13th Sun here, I like the record. It's a great starting point for the sound that now lives on through Krux.
The main point here is that he is not really making Candlemass-copying-Candlemass records, because in no way does KOTGI sound like a faksimile of Nightfall or Ancient Dreams. It's more like the songwriting direction of 13th Sun, maybe slightly more "in the box", paired with the general sound of olde. As you have mentioned, there is generally less music/less notes inside one Candlemass song of 2007 than one of 1987. More back to basic. That's also a kind of progression, which you happen not to like.
Seen through my eyes, Candlemass have always evolved and thus never gotten weary. The only Cmass record that in my opinion didn't show any progression from the previous record was Ancient Dreams (which still was a great Nightfall 2.0).

Helm wrote:Candlemass are legends, sure. But your integrity (not your doom cred) comes down to how convincing your last record was, and I ain't convinced. You are, and we can agree to disagree, but I don't care if you've made 100 of the best doom records ever, if your newest one is phoned in, I will call you on it.

Sure you can call him on it if you don't like the record, you should, even. I'm just saying there's no questioning that his heart lies with doom, I think he has proven that and then some. Integrity, the way I see it, comes down to more than the quality of the latest record. It's more a question of WHY you are doing a record like it, than how good it is.

Helm wrote:Abstrakt Algebra (which I finally managed to bypass my spell-checker to write correctly ) and From The 13th Sun easily piss over the latter material in my opinion. Again, we disagree, just trying to be lucid about this and not degenerate to gnarl nagrl hate hate hate hate!!

Get a swedish spell-check, it's gonna salute you for writing it.
Sure we can disagree. I am not looking to hate anyone either.[/i]

I'm just saying there's no questioning that his heart lies with doom, I think he has proven that and then some. Integrity, the way I see it, comes down to more than the quality of the latest record. It's more a question of WHY you are doing a record like it, than how good it is.

I don't understand though, doesn't the case I'm making that he's making generic doom records to pay the bills register as a very probably WHY?

Helm wrote:I don't understand though, doesn't the case I'm making that he's making generic doom records to pay the bills register as a very probably WHY?

Again, they're not generic if you ask me, and that he is doing it to pay the bills is just your assumption. There's lots of bandwagons he could have jumped, but he hasn't, that's integrity for me. Whatever he has recorded for the past 25 years and counting the doom element has always been there, so to be frank I think it's ridiculous to question if his heart lies with doom. Obviously it does. Just because you don't like a record you don't have to question the musicians motives.

I would probably have made an assumption similar to yours, if:

A: Abstrakt Algebra and Dactylis Glomerata had been VERY far removed from Candlemass, ie not doom and hardly metal at all, but that's not the case. It's different, but not that different.

And:

B: After that, he would have returned with Candlemass, renounced his 90's and desperately tried to reinvoke the spirit and the visual image of the 80's. But he's renounced nothing and the newer Candlemass albums are clearly cases of "something old, something new".

nightsblood wrote:

mordred wrote:Nobody ever seems to rate Chapter VI as high as I do.

It has a few really good songs on it... to be fiar I probably should re-visit it as it's been years since I heard the entire album.

I think you should revisit it. In my opinion The Dying Illusion, Black Eyes, Temple of the Dead and particularly the fantastic Where the Runes Still Speak belong to the best songs Candlemass ever did. Ebony Throne and Julie Laughs no More are also great tracks. The only lacklustre one would be The End of Pain, and Aftermath is bit of an oddity, but actually quite a good song once you get used to Candlemass playing that kind of material.

I think Chapter VI is a terribly overlooked record. In Sweden many reject it just based on the change of vocalist, many times without even listening to the album. The thing about Thomas Vikström is that he started his carreer as an 18 year old in an AOR band that had a national hit with the song "Free Like an Eagle" in the late eighties. To a lot of swedes he's closely associated with that one song and thus many labeled him an "AOR vocalist" that could not possibly fit in a doom metal band. Which is of course ridiculous, because Vikström has sung AOR and doom metal and pretty much every HM/HR genre in between and then some, including major parts in national musical theatre. AOR vocalist my ass, but that's the way a lot of people see it, regardless of reality. It's sad I think.

mordred wrote:In Sweden many reject it just based on the change of vocalist, many times without even listening to the album. The thing about Thomas Vikström is that he started his carreer as an 18 year old in an AOR band that had a national hit with the song "Free Like an Eagle" in the late eighties. To a lot of swedes he's closely associated with that one song and thus many labeled him an "AOR vocalist" that could not possibly fit in a doom metal band. Which is of course ridiculous, because Vikström has sung AOR and doom metal and pretty much every HM/HR genre in between and then some, including major parts in national musical theatre. AOR vocalist my ass, but that's the way a lot of people see it, regardless of reality. It's sad I think.

That's a really dumb reason. Johan Langquist sang in similar genre's too after he left.
If you won't be listening to certain Candlemass era because the singer sang in a 'bad' genre, they shouldn't listen to anything with Messiah(Requiem...).