Is it really about it? They are not the same, but honestly i can't say that i feel any sympathy for the bootleg circuit.DaN wrote:Who commits the worst crime?
Your opinions on...
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ION BRITTON
- Posts: 6645
- Joined: Tue Jul 25, 2006 3:07 pm
Good against Evil, Evil sure to win
"It really didn't matter if they liked it or not, i was going to give it to them straight down their throats" -John Stewart
"It really didn't matter if they liked it or not, i was going to give it to them straight down their throats" -John Stewart
Look, I've said this before, but I am more than happy to buy a bootleg if it has never been released on CD before and is the only known pressing of it on CD!!!!
I'm not a fan of those who go and release boots of deleted CD's!
Satan-Court In The Act is the perfect example, there are 100's of others!
This is the only thing that makes me angry!!! I get ultra pissed-off when I think I'm getting the real deal, and it turns out to be a boot, and I paid good money for it.
I knew when I got the Rankelson CD that it was a boot, but it doesn't worry me, those albums were NEVER released on CD! I'm just happy to have a rare bootleg of the album pressed on CD & when the official release comes out with extra shit on it (IF EVER), I'll also buy that, then the bootleg version I have will probably be worth something!?
If King's "boot" of Blessed Death is the only way to get it on CD, then I'm fine with it. How can something that has never been released on CD be considered a bootleg? if someone goes & releases it with the bands permission verbally or in writing, then that's fine... I'm sure most of those has-been classic bands would be 'over-the-moon' to know that someone cares to release there CD 20+ years later!!?
Most of them would have thought no one cared & any thought of their music being in demand was totally dead & buried!
I'm sure the contracts that were signed back in the day for those albums was for a vinyl release only???????????? Right?
Yes.. blah blah... someone owns the recordings ...blah blah..., but where the fuck are they & do they really care...
Please enlighten me, someone..?
I'm not a fan of those who go and release boots of deleted CD's!
Satan-Court In The Act is the perfect example, there are 100's of others!
This is the only thing that makes me angry!!! I get ultra pissed-off when I think I'm getting the real deal, and it turns out to be a boot, and I paid good money for it.
I knew when I got the Rankelson CD that it was a boot, but it doesn't worry me, those albums were NEVER released on CD! I'm just happy to have a rare bootleg of the album pressed on CD & when the official release comes out with extra shit on it (IF EVER), I'll also buy that, then the bootleg version I have will probably be worth something!?
If King's "boot" of Blessed Death is the only way to get it on CD, then I'm fine with it. How can something that has never been released on CD be considered a bootleg? if someone goes & releases it with the bands permission verbally or in writing, then that's fine... I'm sure most of those has-been classic bands would be 'over-the-moon' to know that someone cares to release there CD 20+ years later!!?
Most of them would have thought no one cared & any thought of their music being in demand was totally dead & buried!
I'm sure the contracts that were signed back in the day for those albums was for a vinyl release only???????????? Right?
Yes.. blah blah... someone owns the recordings ...blah blah..., but where the fuck are they & do they really care...
Please enlighten me, someone..?
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nightsblood
- Posts: 2435
- Joined: Sun Mar 18, 2007 6:11 pm
Good point; this is one good example of where, morally, bootlegging becomes a 'gray' issue.DaN wrote: Is it OK to re-release/bootleg material without permission from a record label known to have ripped off its own bands back in the day? Who commits the worst crime? Personally I have little love to spare for the record industry as a whole so my answer is a definitive: sort of, I guess...
Another case: you track down the band and they tell you Person X owns all the rights. When you contact Person X, they tell you they have no interest whatsoever in ever reissuing the album or selling the rights (this is what happened to Cirith Ungol regarding the rights to 'Paradise Lost'; the label wouldn't reissue it and they wouldn't sell the rights to it). In this case, the only way the band makes any money or sees their material made available again is if the bootlegger pays them for some bonus material (demo tracks, pictures for the booklet, etc).
Oh, and regarding 'Paradise Lost'... there is finally a legal reissue available, complete with flimsy, cheap-o packaging, no extras, AND the band got exactly $0; Tim Baker had to go into a store and buy a copy for himself (this according to Robert Garven). Thus, in terms of morality, legal reissues can be just as cheap and slimey as bootlegs are commonly perceived to be.
"I'm sorry Sam, we had real chemistry. But like a monkey on the sun, our love was too hot to live"
-Becky
-Becky
Ok You said in lighten you so here you go.
Back in the day labels like Shrapnel and New R. not only released vinyl but the contracts state they were purchasing the copyrights. If memory serves me correct most of these last 7-10 year as King stated BUT you can renew these copyrights at that time. Most Indy/private stuff was NOT renewed as the bands broke up and the copyright holder just didn't care anymore or just plain forgot. Now you might see on some Re releases something like Copyright 1982/2006 this should mean the copy right expired and it was resubmitted by the old holder at the later date and now holds a new 7-10 years.
In the case of LABELS like shrapnel and New R. they collected these Copyrights as a catalog and kept them current all these years (every 7-10 years renewing) This is were the problem is with things like (Griffin, Wild Dogs, Deadly Blessing..... also stuff like Q5 & Xcursion)
Now with all that crap said. It would be illegal to release any of this stuff without the copyright holders say so. It legally does not matter what the band says at this point as they sold the rights years before (paid/or not paid,promises...) DOES NOT MATTER. At this time there is a legal holder of the copyright.
So you can claim to PLAY ROBIN HOOD (Vegas, King) and say you are doing it for the love of music/and you are doing it for the bands who got ripped off in the past. BUT even Robin Hood was just a thief.
(if anyone wants to use the name Robin Hood Records for there boots feel free)
The problem lies in the fact that we're not talking about a lot of money so lawyers and courts just don't care(not worth the time) at best you get a "stop order" Sees & desist (MAYBE at the very most a small fine $100-200 but that is it)
VEGAS has the best scam yet (A musician for the musicians) They press everything they can get there hands on (not Shrapnel or NewR or other USA Majors as they had problems with this already) 10-25 copies CRD Color Home Printer. Start selling on Ebay (since there are a lot of people who want this stuff on CD some of the people in this thread claim to be in this group) they sell high for a CDR $50-100 (covers all cost) Then if a band contacts them they try and sign a real deal. If they cant they trade the handful of unsold copies for other boots overseas and it is over. If the band doesn't contact them and they see a real demand for it. They press 100-200 more copies and start selling.
To keep them out of ANY Harms way they don't put there info on the first run they use a name in Italy, Spain... even though they are made right here in Vegas. brilliant
Back in the day labels like Shrapnel and New R. not only released vinyl but the contracts state they were purchasing the copyrights. If memory serves me correct most of these last 7-10 year as King stated BUT you can renew these copyrights at that time. Most Indy/private stuff was NOT renewed as the bands broke up and the copyright holder just didn't care anymore or just plain forgot. Now you might see on some Re releases something like Copyright 1982/2006 this should mean the copy right expired and it was resubmitted by the old holder at the later date and now holds a new 7-10 years.
In the case of LABELS like shrapnel and New R. they collected these Copyrights as a catalog and kept them current all these years (every 7-10 years renewing) This is were the problem is with things like (Griffin, Wild Dogs, Deadly Blessing..... also stuff like Q5 & Xcursion)
Now with all that crap said. It would be illegal to release any of this stuff without the copyright holders say so. It legally does not matter what the band says at this point as they sold the rights years before (paid/or not paid,promises...) DOES NOT MATTER. At this time there is a legal holder of the copyright.
So you can claim to PLAY ROBIN HOOD (Vegas, King) and say you are doing it for the love of music/and you are doing it for the bands who got ripped off in the past. BUT even Robin Hood was just a thief.
(if anyone wants to use the name Robin Hood Records for there boots feel free)
The problem lies in the fact that we're not talking about a lot of money so lawyers and courts just don't care(not worth the time) at best you get a "stop order" Sees & desist (MAYBE at the very most a small fine $100-200 but that is it)
VEGAS has the best scam yet (A musician for the musicians) They press everything they can get there hands on (not Shrapnel or NewR or other USA Majors as they had problems with this already) 10-25 copies CRD Color Home Printer. Start selling on Ebay (since there are a lot of people who want this stuff on CD some of the people in this thread claim to be in this group) they sell high for a CDR $50-100 (covers all cost) Then if a band contacts them they try and sign a real deal. If they cant they trade the handful of unsold copies for other boots overseas and it is over. If the band doesn't contact them and they see a real demand for it. They press 100-200 more copies and start selling.
To keep them out of ANY Harms way they don't put there info on the first run they use a name in Italy, Spain... even though they are made right here in Vegas. brilliant
Now for something Nightsblood stated
How does a boot effect the market?
Boots can be sold cheap! and real legit reissues have some expense in them. which changes the market.
For example ONLY:
A label in NY starts making and selling boots. They sell these for $8 each retail (Ex. Only Heathens Rage, Tantrum, ........)the label claims these are done Legit with the help of the bands (one guy who says he holds the rights and you can do whatever you want) but are not as Dream
records holds the rights (JUST AND EXAMPLE) the use the vinyl as a master/ cheap thin cover/ no extras..
Now a legit label comes around and puts out something like Thatcher(example only) Pays the band/ Nice cover/ good recording....... but they have too sell them for $20 each retail to break even.
Distros, Customers, Metal fans, ALL BITCH AND MOAN about the high price and the Legit record doesn't sell very good and ends losing money.
This is one of my problems with this. It just screws up the market. and the result is the Legit label goes under since they can't compete with the illegal releases.
This is also why there was a standerdized pricing system for LP's, CD,s when you went to the store. So folks like EMI wouldn't sell there stuff for $3.99 while WEA was selling for $9.99.
How does a boot effect the market?
Boots can be sold cheap! and real legit reissues have some expense in them. which changes the market.
For example ONLY:
A label in NY starts making and selling boots. They sell these for $8 each retail (Ex. Only Heathens Rage, Tantrum, ........)the label claims these are done Legit with the help of the bands (one guy who says he holds the rights and you can do whatever you want) but are not as Dream
records holds the rights (JUST AND EXAMPLE) the use the vinyl as a master/ cheap thin cover/ no extras..
Now a legit label comes around and puts out something like Thatcher(example only) Pays the band/ Nice cover/ good recording....... but they have too sell them for $20 each retail to break even.
Distros, Customers, Metal fans, ALL BITCH AND MOAN about the high price and the Legit record doesn't sell very good and ends losing money.
This is one of my problems with this. It just screws up the market. and the result is the Legit label goes under since they can't compete with the illegal releases.
This is also why there was a standerdized pricing system for LP's, CD,s when you went to the store. So folks like EMI wouldn't sell there stuff for $3.99 while WEA was selling for $9.99.
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metalmaster
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Shadow Kingdom
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You see, that's the big problem with the pirates copies.glockose wrote:
Boots can be sold cheap! and real legit reissues have some expense in them. which changes the market.
Which btw, they should be called pirate copies, not bootlegs. I always thought bootlegs were (unofficial and official) live recordings and pirate copies were illegal pressed/manufactured recordings. but this is neither here nor there, just something that was on my mind.
Ok, the problem is that these illegal copies are being sold from what I see exactly the same price as official copies (we're talking CDs here). From my experience, pirate copies were offered to me along with legal copies for exactly the same wholesale price which is total bullshit and someone is getting rich off of this. When you have no behind the scenes cost, it's all profit not on an illegal pressing, but also an illegal company that isn't registered with the government and has no taxes to report at the end of the year.
I mean for me, I had to pay thousands of dollars just to have all my taxes done properly so I didn't get into trouble... so you figure say (FOR EXAMPLE) Say $2,000 in sales of the year is taken away from me. + Thousands in paypal fees, + credit card fees, + banking fees , + a lot of shipping fees I personally eat, and so on.
A lot of these people, even people that make legal pressings don't have to worry about doing taxes or paying anyone to do them because their label isn't even a legal business. And that's their risk, but I prefer to play by the rules, even if it means a loss of THOUSANDS by the end of the year, I can sleep at night and I still enjoy what I do.
This might be a good time to mention, I'll be increasing my price on my next release ENERGY VAMPIRES (not a lot though).
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metalmaster
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Well as I said before, King is reivindicated by his friends in this forum, and his costumers. No problem King, keep bootleging, stay true to metal, have great succes with your bands and etc etc. CONGRATULATIONS!!
But whats even worse is that you ripped off your costumers selling bootlegs with zero quality (oohh I forgot, you HAVE IMPROVED), but what is even worse is that people keep buying your cds... Anyway, I wonder why to buy your cds at 12 dls when in most of cases you can get a lp copy of Griffin, Sound Barrier, Exciter, Dr Mastermind, etc in no more than 15 bucks... and belive me, look and sound far better than yours.
Note that this all is not against you, but your bootlegging actions. Dont start a drama where there is not drama to start. I have nothing against you as person and the nice guy you always claim to be. Except that you do all this shit and then you raise your self as an avenger of those poor bands who were ripped off by bands...
...you accepted bootleging and didnt give solid basis to demostarte that your cds are legal. So, I ofered my apologizes if you demostarte the legality of your cds, you didnt, so, I wont apologize and I'll keep labelling you as a miserable bootleger, if that has any immportance at all...
But whats even worse is that you ripped off your costumers selling bootlegs with zero quality (oohh I forgot, you HAVE IMPROVED), but what is even worse is that people keep buying your cds... Anyway, I wonder why to buy your cds at 12 dls when in most of cases you can get a lp copy of Griffin, Sound Barrier, Exciter, Dr Mastermind, etc in no more than 15 bucks... and belive me, look and sound far better than yours.
Note that this all is not against you, but your bootlegging actions. Dont start a drama where there is not drama to start. I have nothing against you as person and the nice guy you always claim to be. Except that you do all this shit and then you raise your self as an avenger of those poor bands who were ripped off by bands...
...you accepted bootleging and didnt give solid basis to demostarte that your cds are legal. So, I ofered my apologizes if you demostarte the legality of your cds, you didnt, so, I wont apologize and I'll keep labelling you as a miserable bootleger, if that has any immportance at all...
@ Hload: How can you write all this in this thread, yet on the other hand you said this (on the other forum) about a goddamn greek bootleger SELLING IDENTICAL BOOTLEGS, YET AS ORIGINALS (I don't know if it's a 1st press or re-press my ass):
well, this guy is a friend of mine. he recently paid cash for his new 250 sq.metres appartment. he still needs furniture though...all power to him....he's not his fault if lots of fools think that is "cool" to get some "rare" boots,hehehehe......
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Shadow Kingdom
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- Joined: Thu Oct 25, 2007 6:51 am
If King is finding all these obscure bands and paying them whatever the band feel's is good, then on a human level, what is he doing wrong? The band agrees to allow him to press x number of copies for x amount of dollars, case closed.
He admitted in his early years of doing some illegal pressings, that he was pressured into by his partner, so he made a mistake and from what I understand has contact and permission from all the bands he releases now.
So is there a problem right now with his pressings? Please explain.
He admitted in his early years of doing some illegal pressings, that he was pressured into by his partner, so he made a mistake and from what I understand has contact and permission from all the bands he releases now.
So is there a problem right now with his pressings? Please explain.
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metalmaster
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Ohhh soooryy Mr Perfect English. I'm even worse than King the Bootlegger for just not typing a miserable WBlack Axe wrote:He only has one layer? He must be skin and bones...metalmaster wrote:the one Kings mention and claim to be his layer...Black Axe wrote:I have the new Rat Attack CD and it is of excellent quality, including liner notes and lyrics.
metalmaster, who's this layer guy you mention?
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kingfowley
- Posts: 74
- Joined: Tue Dec 18, 2007 1:07 am
i too file taxes brother!Shadow Kingdom wrote:You see, that's the big problem with the pirates copies.glockose wrote:
Boots can be sold cheap! and real legit reissues have some expense in them. which changes the market.
Which btw, they should be called pirate copies, not bootlegs. I always thought bootlegs were (unofficial and official) live recordings and pirate copies were illegal pressed/manufactured recordings. but this is neither here nor there, just something that was on my mind.
Ok, the problem is that these illegal copies are being sold from what I see exactly the same price as official copies (we're talking CDs here). From my experience, pirate copies were offered to me along with legal copies for exactly the same wholesale price which is total bullshit and someone is getting rich off of this. When you have no behind the scenes cost, it's all profit not on an illegal pressing, but also an illegal company that isn't registered with the government and has no taxes to report at the end of the year.
I mean for me, I had to pay thousands of dollars just to have all my taxes done properly so I didn't get into trouble... so you figure say (FOR EXAMPLE) Say $2,000 in sales of the year is taken away from me. + Thousands in paypal fees, + credit card fees, + banking fees , + a lot of shipping fees I personally eat, and so on.
A lot of these people, even people that make legal pressings don't have to worry about doing taxes or paying anyone to do them because their label isn't even a legal business. And that's their risk, but I prefer to play by the rules, even if it means a loss of THOUSANDS by the end of the year, I can sleep at night and I still enjoy what I do.
This might be a good time to mention, I'll be increasing my price on my next release ENERGY VAMPIRES (not a lot though).
keeping all reciepts and eating it when tax time comes, and now omr is registered as an official buisness!
filed for it last winter after all the years. bar codes and everything nowadays
cheers on bringing this out about illegal buisnesses being run, good point!
you and me talked of it on phone i think it was and i agreed with you. everything falls into place slowly. growing up a tad bit more these days!
cheers man
deathmask!
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Shadow Kingdom
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