Progressive and Speed Metal

FenderMedium · Post by **FenderMedium** » Tue Jun 26, 2007 7:17 pm

Do you consider these two legitimate genres, It seems to me that speed metal is only certain albums by bands of other genres and that progressive is usually a tag added to other genres to denote progressive structures,there are very few albums that can be called "progressive metal".

sovdat · Post by **sovdat** » Tue Jun 26, 2007 7:38 pm

Speed metal: I try to avoid it since I saw everyting from Dark Angel to Freedom Call labeled speed metal.

Progressive metal: Sure. In fact, it's the easiest metal sub-genre to describe, just look for a word "progressive" in a dictionary

. But yes, I know what you mean and I'd say no, as it usually is progressive this or that.

FenderMedium · Post by **FenderMedium** » Tue Jun 26, 2007 8:04 pm

Then you have those people who claim painkiller is the first speed metal album ever and its like

Helm · Post by **Helm** » Tue Jun 26, 2007 8:09 pm

Speed metal is a term that emerged in the 'Heavy Metal, only BETTER AND NEW AND MAKES OLD HEAVY METAL REDUNDANT' days I think. Back when Metallica printed business cards that read 'POWER METAL' on them and so on. speed, power, thrash (initially) ment 'better metal' as far as I can understand because they were used interchangably and they didn't solidify in describing actual musical traits until later on. Back in the day the evolution of metal was understood to be linear. Thrash Metal killed Heavy Metal and so on. It's only today that new metal listeners say 'I recognize all these different genres and respect them all equally'.

Power Metal has a stronger identity today, it's in the teutonic orchestral neoclassical happy cheesy power metal side of things, though once we used it to describe Gargoyle(US) and such with it.

Speed Metal is largely meaningless if you think about it. It either means 'savage thrash metal without the bay area chops' or it means 'proto-thrash on-the-fence Metal-Blade-Metal like Savage Grace' or it means 'neoclassical technical thrash metal like Megadeath' or it means 'germanic power metal bands before they were power metal like Helloween and Bling Guardian'. So I try to avoid the term. Usually when I use it I mean the 'Savage Grace' type, really. The corroseum seems to go with the 'savage thrash' version I think. Seriously, I am not sure at all that when people talk about speed metal, anybody understands what the other person is saying besides the fact that the damn thing needs to be fucking fast.

It was pretty meaningless to begin with, especially since in the early-to-mid 80's most heavy metal bands didn't specialize on one single facet of metal. They had their anthemic power metal hymn, their slow epic metal track, their almost-glam embarassment and their speed metal hell track. It was much later when bands have started having a concrete idea of what 'metal is' that they started to mimick not their favourite bands but genres. You no longer said 'I want to start a band that sounds like Masters Hammer having sex with Torchure' you said 'I want to start a black/death band' and that's awful.

Progressive Metal is a very real genre of music and it mostly sucks. If thrash metal is the mullet, then prog metal is the ponytail. There were forward-thinking metal bands in any genre, but 'prog metal' is a very specific thing.

FenderMedium · Post by **FenderMedium** » Tue Jun 26, 2007 8:13 pm

Well it doesn't have a defined sound that I can hear in other genres compare Dream Theater with Psychotic Waltz and Adramelch and Leviathan and Shadow Gallery, they do have some similar riffs I can't explain but overall they aren't sounding very similar nor are they staying purely progressive metal to my ears save for Dream Theater they are hailed as some kind of kings of the genre and they seem to be one of the worst of the genre in my opinion.

Helm · Post by **Helm** » Tue Jun 26, 2007 8:22 pm

I think to understand progressive metal well one needs to know the three-four mostly disparate trends in it and see where each band falls to.

There's the Fates Warning/Queensryche proto-progressive, which is usually intelligent power metal with twists and turns and amazing vocalists. Adramelch falls in this camp for example. Potential for goodness? Strong, but sometimes bland bands, or undecided if they want to play progressive metal or power.

There's the psychotic progressive stuff, with bands like Voivod, Watchtower and (early) Sieges Even (Psychotic Waltz sit between this and the category above). Usually strong Rush influence, and lots of contemporary classical. In progressive rock terms, these are our RIO bands. Potential for goodness? Usually strong if you can take the what-the-fuck-ness.

Then there's the AOR-type progressive metal. Usually bands that play simple constructs of songs that U2 could play, but throw 30 million solos in there. There's many parts, but the songs are simple. Dream Theater to Shadow Gallery go here. Potential for goodness? Very low. It's the odd exception that rules like Shadow Gallery that makes me even remember this genre exists.

Now as it usually is, the sub-genre with the most visibility is the AOR one, followed by the power-prog one, and only select nuts listen to the psycho prog stuff.

FenderMedium · Post by **FenderMedium** » Tue Jun 26, 2007 8:36 pm

I wouldn't even consider the average dream theater fan a metal fan in general, it seems most of this aor influenced prog can barely be called metal.

Noisenik · Post by **Noisenik** » Tue Jun 26, 2007 9:11 pm

Killer argumentation there, Helm.

We used to define speed metal with albums of Savage Grace, Liege Lord, Exciter and even some Judas Priest tracks. Few pages into IB there's a Define the genre thread, which we have abandoned rather quickly. With reason perhaps, as it seems it include even less albums than TT. It was sorta transitional genre or sth. I still don't understand (will probably sound strange to you) how come Slayer's Reign In Blood is rgdd as "speed Metal"? For me it cannot sound more thrash. Ok, Helm has partly answered me already, but still ...

FenderMedium · Post by **FenderMedium** » Tue Jun 26, 2007 10:32 pm

I can't see how anyone can call Reign in Blood speed metal at all, Show No Mercy is the only one I've heard called speed/thrash by some people.

Post by **DaN** » Tue Jun 26, 2007 11:28 pm

Helm wrote:It was pretty meaningless to begin with, especially since in the early-to-mid 80's most heavy metal bands didn't specialize on one single facet of metal. They had their anthemic power metal hymn, their slow epic metal track, their almost-glam embarassment and their speed metal hell track. It was much later when bands have started having a concrete idea of what 'metal is' that they started to mimick not their favourite bands but genres. You no longer said 'I want to start a band that sounds like Masters Hammer having sex with Torchure' you said 'I want to start a black/death band' and that's awful.

The biggest problem with the majority of bands today nailed down perfectly.

Helm wrote:If thrash metal is the mullet, then prog metal is the ponytail.

...and again!

I've always considered 'Progressive Metal' the metallic continuation of 70's Progressive Rock. Just about every band in the genre admit to have been influenced by those oldies, and that scene was equally schizophrenic. My biggest disappointment with both genres is that more often than not, these bands aren't as original and spearheaded as they claim to be. So many time-changes, so little talent...

Ernest Thesiger · Post by **Ernest Thesiger** » Tue Jun 26, 2007 11:42 pm

The trouble is, when many bands claim to play "progressive" rock, they mean rock that probably sounded progressive when the term "progressive rock" was coined back in the '70s.