Money For Nothing & Music For Free

[Eskew Reeder]

from a HM musician point of view:

whats the point of releasing 1000 copies of my new CD if the "fans" will donwload it 2 months after its released...in that case its useless to print covers,make cds and pay for my expensive cover art....new pseudo metal generations are losing values here...

on a brighter side,my bandmates and i have discussed several times that finding your album on the internet is unavoidable,but its a good thing at least from the promotiong side, people is showing interest and it does feel good to be aware that people in far away countries at least listen to your music,at the end,thats the point of creating music in first place

we know we are not gonna live from our HM music,wheter is downloadable or not...but one thing is certain, claiming your are the real trve metalmaster for having tons and tons of "obscure"(my ass) mp3´s is a legit as being a doctor with a boot degree printed from the internet,that is a fact

Well said.

[ION BRITTON]

I guess what I don't understand is how most of us agree that to take a band's music and bootleg it without their permission is wrong.

But if you do the same thing and distribute it for free that makes it ok.

One is feeding the distributors pocketbook while the other is feeding the distributors ego.

I don't see how one can be acceptable but the other isn't when the fact is they are both distributing music they have no rights to.

Excuse me that I'm asking this but were you that passionate in your reactions back in the 80s with the tapetrading circuit or it's something that has occured to you in the last 5 years?

But I will give you a straight answer. Yes, we don't own the music and we don't own any rights to it. Only the bands and the labels do, even if most of them don't give a damn about a few crappy songs they recorded or produced 30 years ago. It doesn;t matter that a few people actually care for some totally unknown and forgotten cool band 20 years later. They have no right to upload that stuff. If you were lucky enough to have ordered a demo or pressing of 50 copies of a 7'' made back in the day and you paid the band or the official distributor for it, that is only OK. On any other case you have no right over it. Maybe not even discussing about it, what's the point talking about a great forgotten band of 1985 in 2010 if you don't have the right to listen to it in some way other than owning an original copy which you have to buy directly from the band or the official distributor?
If you can't differentiate between the spreading (not talking about making a boot) of the one and only rehearsal demo of a totally unknown band that some people are interested to hear because maybe that's their only chance to hear it and the uploading of the new Metallica album and both are the same to you, I can't say much more.

[Eskew Reeder]

I guess what I don't understand is how most of us agree that to take a band's music and bootleg it without their permission is wrong.

But if you do the same thing and distribute it for free that makes it ok.

One is feeding the distributors pocketbook while the other is feeding the distributors ego.

I don't see how one can be acceptable but the other isn't when the fact is they are both distributing music they have no rights to.

Excuse me that I'm asking this but were you that passionate in your reactions back in the 80s with the tapetrading circuit or it's something that has occured to you in the last 5 years?

But I will give you a straight answer. Yes, we don't own the music and we don't own any rights to it. Only the bands and the labels do, even if most of them don't give a damn about a few crappy songs they recorded or produced 30 years ago. It doesn;t matter that a few people actually care for some totally unknown and forgotten cool band 20 years later. They have no right to upload that stuff. If you were lucky enough to have ordered a demo or pressing of 50 copies of a 7'' made back in the day and you paid the band or the official distributor for it, that is only OK. On any other case you have no right over it. Maybe not even discussing about it, what's the point talking about a great forgotten band of 1985 in 2010 if you don't have the right to listen to it in some way other than owning an original copy which you have to buy directly from the band or the official distributor?
If you can't differentiate between the spreading (not talking about making a boot) of the one and only rehearsal demo of a totally unknown band that some people are interested to hear because maybe that's their only chance to hear it and the uploading of the new Metallica album and both are the same to you, I can't say much more.

Good question....and the honest answer is that no, I did not have this reaction when back in the 80's people traded tapes. And while that may seem (and be) hypocritical I see it as an economic issue based on scale of size. Having your music heard by 5 people has no where near the monetary potential as having 10,000 people downloading it does.

I can tell you from experience that in the 80's there were plenty of "bootleg" labels mostly operating out of Europe that made obscure/unknown music available to the masses. These labels were treated for the most part the same way you describe above, as harmless distributors of "totally unknown music that some people are interested to hear because maybe that's their only chance to hear it".

Many of the bands that were bootlegged early one have asked me if there was any recourse they could take against these bootleggers and I had to honestly tell them that unless they were willing to spend more $$$ then they would receive if they won a settlement, no, there was nothing they could really do. And I always thought that sucked.

When I ran my label I felt that it was important first and foremost to do it with the band's permission and to cut them in on the profits. In many cases the bands admittedly were more interested in controlling the sound quality, cover art, package, etc. than they were receiving money. I never sought to obtain copyrights or publishing as I didn't think it was right for me to "own" someone elses "art".

In many cases the bands I worked with were approached, through me, by other companies, to re-release the material on CD or vinyl. In those cases I felt it was my duty to make sure the bands got paid by these labels that I hooked them up with, however I never received a penny, nor should I have.

I'm no expert in the heavy Metal world and was just curious more than anything to see what the attitudes were within this world on this topic. I'm certainly not here to call anyone in particular out or to force my views on others. I do believe though that a band like Metallica has a major label and literally 100's of people working for them to make sure they get paid every penny they deserve while some people feel the obscure artist can get screwed over and should be happy about it.

The musician from Mexico put it very well in his previous post and coming from the perspective of being a musician himself I put more credence in his answer than I do that of a "collector".

To use a quote I once read on the Internet....."Good against Evil, Evil sure to win"

[Trigger]

from a HM musician point of view:

whats the point of releasing 1000 copies of my new CD if the "fans" will donwload it 2 months after its released...in that case its useless to print covers,make cds and pay for my expensive cover art....new pseudo metal generations are losing values here...

on a brighter side,my bandmates and i have discussed several times that finding your album on the internet is unavoidable,but its a good thing at least from the promotiong side, people is showing interest and it does feel good to be aware that people in far away countries at least listen to your music,at the end,thats the point of creating music in first place

we know we are not gonna live from our HM music,wheter is downloadable or not...but one thing is certain, claiming your are the real trve metalmaster for having tons and tons of "obscure"(my ass) mp3´s is a legit as being a doctor with a boot degree printed from the internet,that is a fact

This means that anyone who doesn't buy your CD is not allowed to listen to it.And anyone who brags of his mp3 collection,is as retarded as the ones who envies him.
As a general conclusion though,It's all about listening to this music in my opinion,not about "owning" or acquiring it.And I don't mean we shouldn't buy anything,by no means!I just feel that anyone who wants to listen to the music should do it and all those who want to buy it will.If you think that the ones who won't buy it shouldn't listen to it,it's against the law,put them all into jail for being illegal!The rights belong to the creator only,all the rest are for the labels to whine for losing money.Nobody liked what Metallica did with the Nero case but I can't see much difference to what you are talking about now.

[Trigger]

What is the main reason that makes bootleggers release their bootlegs?Because for me the reason is the collecting-mania only.I didn't see any "Headless Cross" being bootlegged.....People pay big $$$ for a record,some other release it as a bootleg and there's not a demand/supply crap around,prices are n arbitrary decision of the monopoly owner.

[Eskew Reeder]

This means that anyone who doesn't buy your CD is not allowed to listen to it..

If I want to eat a sandwich I need to buy a sandwich...or steal one.

If I want to drive a car I need to buy/rent a car...or steal one.

If I want to use a software program I need to buy it....or steal it.

So what makes music different??

[Trigger]

This means that anyone who doesn't buy your CD is not allowed to listen to it..

If I want to eat a sandwich I need to buy a sandwich...or steal one.

If I want to drive a car I need to buy/rent a car...or steal one.

If I want to use a software program I need to buy it....or steal it.

So what makes music different??

The fact that it's not a material product.Music is supposed to be a cultural product.Doesn't that say it all?

[Eskew Reeder]

This means that anyone who doesn't buy your CD is not allowed to listen to it..

If I want to eat a sandwich I need to buy a sandwich...or steal one.

If I want to drive a car I need to buy/rent a car...or steal one.

If I want to use a software program I need to buy it....or steal it.

So what makes music different??

The fact that it's not a material product.Music is supposed to be a cultural product.Doesn't that say it all?

Yep...that says it all.....amazing.

[Khnud]

I'm no expert on intellectual property law but please differentiate between stealing a physical item and infringing on copyright - these are two totally different crimes.

As for the question at hand:
A modern band who is still active and has official distro, and find their stuff online on some blog or torrent will get pissed off. I can relate to that 100%.

But if I used to play in a band some 20+ years ago and haven't been active since, all copies of the 200 press run single we used to put out are all sold long ago, and I suddenly find there's an active underground community who, while they never had the chance to purchase the originals all those years ago, still enjoy listening to some half decent recording someone shared on the internet - I'd probably feel honoured. At least I wouldn't call them thieves.

Now, I've made no secret that I have ripped and shared recordings belonging in the second category. And I've seen them turn up on other blogs and even made into bootlegs. I can't say that makes me feel very proud, more disappointed in myself for being so naive. But then again, the music wasn't mine to begin with, so who am I to complain?

[Sgt. Kuntz]

The above example is exactly how it was for my label. For the THOUSANDS of hours i but into it, I probably made $200-$500. Maybe. if so it was lost in the noise. So lets say I ran my label for year and made $.10 an hour. I think saying "Fuck this label" and sticking with my real income that paid a living wage made a lot more sense. So stick to talking what you know about, there are crazy small labels not just into it for the "profit"

This saddens me to hear that, since i still enjoy all of your albums (only one i haven't heard though). Releasing trad. heavy metal with no cool image or famous connection to any bigger band is almost certanly un-profitable i guess, and that has been the case not only today, or during your label run, but since the late 80s.

I could also live without any die-hards and color editions, but without the collectors who are willing to pay two or three bucks more, maybe the whole release wouldn't be possible, that's how i see it.

@Trigger: Just because you want to have album xy and can't afford to buy it, then that doesn't mean you are automatically entitled to have it for free, haha, you can argue as much as you like, but that is a fact of life. Or maybe call it decency,

Regarding the sharing of old demos, rehearsals, long out of print-albums, we're in a grey area as DaN mentioned in another thread, For example that FORTÈ demo is now beeing rereleased on the new CD so theoretically that link should be removed, correct?

[ION BRITTON]

It's good to hear that you did all those things with the bands you signed, but I don't think you understood what I was implying. And before I continue, I must tell you that I'm not here to force my views on anybody either.

I can tell you from experience that in the 80's there were plenty of "bootleg" labels mostly operating out of Europe that made obscure/unknown music available to the masses. These labels were treated for the most part the same way you describe above, as harmless distributors of "totally unknown music that some people are interested to hear because maybe that's their only chance to hear it".

I have stated above that I'm not talking about making bootlegs. Bootleging is about making money and I found your reference to the old bootlegers in your post a bit insulting 'coz what I was talking about was uploading music. Uploading music isn't always about making money and it's not always about fame, like you've said before. Anyway, I will talk about the situation in this forum. We are making rips and uploading rare stuff for free without making any profit from it. And making a rip does take time, you know. It's not something that happens in a blink of an eye. I'm sure that most of us are doing it not for the fame but for the love of music and because we want to spread the word about the x unknown cool band. And you better be sure that the same people who make those rips are the same people who will be the first to buy the stuff when it is officially rereleased. We are not here to ruin the music business or the bands who make honest and worthwile efforts. Most of us love this music and it's one of our biggest passions in life. Most of us want to support the bands and the labels who in our opinion are doing a good and honest work. But we also want to explore this music. And we want to discover cool unknown music as well. It should kind of obvious that we are not experts in mindreading nor we can tell the future. Maybe something that is uploaded here will be released in 20 years officially. We might be harming the sales of the year 2025 by what we are doing right now, but it's something that we can't know. We are trying not to harm the sales nor to ruin the bands' efforts. You should also know that albums that are in print or are scheduled for release through an official announcement are not uploaded. We delete uploads of albums that are not oop. To put this attitude in the same line with that of the bootlegers (old ones and recent ones) is a tiny bit unfair IMO. Yes, we are not legal and we don't own the rights to the music. But we are not doing it neither for profit nor for fame, but just for the sheer excitement that great music is giving us and for the pleasure of sharing something we think it's cool with the others. Maybe you see that as a criminal offense and maybe it really is and maybe it would be better if we stopped bothering with old unknown bands that didn't have a chance neither back then nor they do now...Honestly, I feel like I'm discussing with a cold business man who puts lawyers everywhere in order to save every single penny he can from his profits and not with a music fan...Sorry if this sounds harsh, but honestly that's how I feel with all this discussion...You also don't seem to realize that there were cases of sharing music online that generated great interest and made labels rerelease stuff that no one cared about before. And not only this, some of that stuff was nearly sold out as well. But that's a positive aspect of the matter and it shouldn't be mentioned.

And you know something...In an ideal world where all crime would be punished and all transgressors would be instantly brought to justice, I personally would sure as hell risk my neck by sharing BLIND ASSASSINS, MAJESTIC RYTES and LORD RYURS in order for the people to hear and not to let stuff like that sink into oblivion, even if it wouldn't have the slightest chance to be rereleased in this or any other lifetime.

[Trigger]

I'm no expert on intellectual property law but please differentiate between stealing a physical item and infringing on copyright - these are two totally different crimes.

As for the question at hand:
A modern band who is still active and has official distro, and find their stuff online on some blog or torrent will get pissed off. I can relate to that 100%.

But if I used to play in a band some 20+ years ago and haven't been active since, all copies of the 200 press run single we used to put out are all sold long ago, and I suddenly find there's an active underground community who, while they never had the chance to purchase the originals all those years ago, still enjoy listening to some half decent recording someone shared on the internet - I'd probably feel honoured. At least I wouldn't call them thieves.

Now, I've made no secret that I have ripped and shared recordings belonging in the second category. And I've seen them turn up on other blogs and even made into bootlegs. I can't say that makes me feel very proud, more disappointed in myself for being so naive.

I am totally for that,that is why the bands DO burn you a CD with their material when they are asked,they don't do that because they like you and want only YOU to hear the music,but it's a good way to spread the word and relieve them from burning several to anyone who asks them.I have never ripped anything,I rarely d/l anything and there are bands that u/l their music themselves for the same aforementioned reasons.Oh,and every band member I have talked to feels exactly like that when I say I like ther music,honoured....

[ION BRITTON]

For example that FORTÈ demo is now beeing rereleased on the new CD so theoretically that link should be removed, correct?

Correct, and it's good that you reminded me. I hope it will include the demo 'coz I don't see that anywhere in their website.

[Khnud]

I am totally for that,that is why the bands DO burn you a CD with their material when they are asked,they don't do that because they like you and want only YOU to hear the music,but it's a good way to spread the word and relieve them from burning several to anyone who asks them.I have never ripped anything,I rarely d/l anything and there are bands that u/l their music themselves for the same aforementioned reasons.Oh,and every band member I have talked to feels exactly like that when I say I like ther music,honoured....

I'm not sure we're talking about the same thing here though. Active bands - bands with official distro - sharing is a big no no.
That's why I agree with Rich's opening post - as a label owner, I'd get mightily pissed off if my hard earned work found its way to a blog after just a few weeks. The ONLY time I believe it's ok to share music is when the band's been inactive for very long, and there's no label promoting their releases. Then, and only then, sharing actually helps the music scene.

[Sgt. Kuntz]

For example that FORTÈ demo is now beeing rereleased on the new CD so theoretically that link should be removed, correct?

Correct, and it's good that you reminded me. I hope it will include the demo 'coz I don't see that anywhere in their website.

The CD comes from a small US label and it's not released yet:
It's announced as a "deluxe version" of the first album that has the demo tracks as bonus songs.

http://www.divebombrecords.com/site/releases/