Money For Nothing & Music For Free

[Trigger]

@nightsblood:I didn't quite get your example by the way,what's the sad look for?The only reason I could explain and justify it would be if you were the seller.Unless you think that at 150$ it was a mistake they made a research about it and it was a bargain they had missed!I don't think that google+wikipedia are the scapegoats here,without them,some bands would still be buried deep in the underground and would be a feast for the very few....it's a way to increase the value of some items anyway,that's what it's all about,isn't it?

[GJ]

last record show I was at, some guys were gawking at a dealer who had the Valhalla EP for sale at $150. They'd never heard of it; so they both whipped out i-phones, dialed up Metal Archives, and in less than 2 minutes they knew how long it was, read a review of it, and were loading up popsike to see if the price was fair. They then d/l'ed it to see if it was any good. Neither guy bought it. At that point, the record had been stripped of its allure. They learned everything about it and downloaded a copy in a few minutes; at that point, most people are not gonna attach much value to the physical item. The dealer and I just exchanged sad looks once they wandered off.

Brrrr... If it hadn't happened in reality already, I would have thought that was material for David Cronenberg's next movie...

You dont have to be old to be wise* - but it may help.

*Oh well, being able to share the views of other old farts was what I meant.

[lunaboy]

Also I noticed one thing.Usually when new record (CD) is out there's plenty of MP3 album on various blogspots.But... It's different when album comes first on VINYL , not CD.For example I can tell you this.I bought WITCHGRAVE - The Devils Night MLP on High Roller Records when this record was just released.CD version were released maybe 2 or 3 months latter and in this period of time I did not noticed any unofficial upload.I checked allmost every week just to know when it will be ripped and posted on line.A lot of kids moaned to upload it in various blogs but it did not happened.When CD version were available, MP3 version also apeared on the net very soon.I think that most of new generation kids do not have turntable at home so if record is released just on vinyl for them it's pain in the ass.

[ION BRITTON]

Two of the most important issues are already mentioned

The people that download and don't buy were not going to buy it anyway to begin with.

and

There is also the possibility that spreading mp3s of obscure music creates a demand for reissues. For example, would BBTAD have reissued Max Planck if the demo hadn't been circulated? Maybe, but I wouldn't have bought it if I hadn't heard them already.

Exactly. There were cases of uploads that actually sparked interest for the x or y unknown and totally forgotten band. MAX PLANCK, JONAH QUIZZ etc.

Have also in mind that most people have a limited budget. It doesn't matter how many albums are out every month, if you can only afford buying x% of them, then you can't really support each and every band and label you find worthy even if you want to.

[Glockose]

Here is my 2 cents for the day.

Sunday I posted auctions on Ebay w/clips

Like a few of you Rob, Night.... I agree you should know what something sounds like if your going to spend your money for it, No Problem

But then I have some kid download all of them within 24 hours and post all my sound clips and photos, on his Blog, On Youtube & link them all to Metal Archives.

To me that's just not kool.

Does he think he's The Metal Robin Hood running around his Mother's house in Green Tights. Taking from the rich and giving to the world?

Some of you might like boys in Green Tights. But I don't understand why he thinks he has the right to do something like that, he has listed 700+ youtube clips..

[nightsblood]

Trig- the 'sad look' was over the fact that, as soon as the kids found out everything they could want to know about the record, they were no longer interested in the actual record. At first they were fascinated with the album, but after 5 minutes of Metal Archives, Popsike, and Vibrations of Doom, you could tell their interest had completely passed; I honestly doubt they'd have given him $50 for it at that point (unless to re-sell on ebay right away).

Glock- Yeah, I saw your clips get circulated I can't speak for that guy, but I don't think it's a Robin Hood complex. My guess is that, for many bloggers, it's a case of "look how much cool stuff I can post on my site". Some people really get into how many views their YouTube vids get and how many Points they rack up on their Metal Archives account. It seems completely insane to me that someone would care whether MA lists them as 'Ultimate Metal God' or 'Supreme Master of the Metal Universe', but the sad fact is that some folks base their whole identity on those things. "He With the Most Obscure Uploads & Highest MA Rating Shalt Be Most tr00 Kvlt". Crazy but tr00

[Cochino]

The fact that labels owners often seem to be missing when they do this kind of posts is that Metal is a pretty niche business and right now there's too many bands and way too many distros, each one of them getting just a small percentage of what labels did at other times? You really think metal sells less now than it did back in the tape trading days? I'm pretty sure it sells even more, there's no people getting rich at it because there's way too much offer. Prices are fucking nuts as well. And what about 0 day bands getting die hard special vinyl releases for their debut and stuff like that? If the business was so bad it wouldn't happen. I know it didn't happen in the 80s. Sure, there's piracy too, but it always have been things like that, and most people who download and don't buy a record probably wouldn't buy it anyway.

I see people is still ignoring this side of the matter, which is less moral and more based on offer/demand, which is not that much a matter of opinion but a matter of fact. Maybe I'm wrong about this, since I'm not a business man and don't know anything about it so if anybody with more experience than me thinks all that is wrong, please let me know and explain why. I'm not trying to be a smartass or anything, it's an honest question and a point I rarely see being made when the whole "downloading is killing bands/labels" argument, both from those pro-mp3's as from those against them.

[ION BRITTON]

I think that most business men fail to realize that there are far more people today, especially those of the newer generations, that simply don't care about buying and supporting the bands and the labels. People with a totally different mentality. Talking about those who discovered metal through free rapidshare and megaupload links and they believe that that's the only way music is meant to be distributed and heard, giving the bands and the labels something in return for the enjoyment they offered them probably never crossed their minds. mp3s have their pros and cons both for the listener and the business men, but it's not the thing that fundamentally harms the sales and the bands.

[Cochino]

I'm not sure if there's more people that don't care, there's just more people exposed to this kind of music. Honestly, I don't know how much more people bought records in the 80s than nowadays. There are lots of countries were albums were rarely released back then and get official releases nowadays, not counting you can buy through internet pretty much anything you want so in an international level I think the market is much bigger nowadays. Also, for labels it doesn't matter the percentage of people who care or not care, but the amount. Let's say that today only 25% (just to put a random number) of those who listen to an album have actually bought it, and it the 80s it was 50%. Are you sure than nowadays 25% of metalheads is less people than 50% in the 80s? I'm not so sure about that, mostly concerning that international aspect I mentioned earlier. Sure, it might have been a golden time where sells were better but that's how things work. Everything has a peek and then goes down. But with so many bands and so many releases, I'd hardly say that mp3's and the internet are killing music and labels. Somehow it's hard for me to believe so much people is willing to lose lots of money. If there's labels like NWN or Hell's Headbangers releasing 10 different versions of "cult" bands and they're still in the market and releasing more and more stuff every day I'd say it's because they're making money out of it. Of course, some labels and bands make money, some not too much and some lose but that's not exclusive of the internet age and certainly not a consequence of filesharing.

[nightsblood]

Cochino- a few replies to points you made.

What do you mean prices today are insane? For new releases/reissues, you're usually looking at $15 for a CD and $20-25 for an LP, which is pretty much where prices have been for a long time. So I'm not sure how these prices would be driving people away from buying new releases/reissues. If you were referring to prices for old items (the 'insane ebay auctions' stuff), that's a little different since the band isn't making any money off those items, so the only way that circulating mp3s of those releases can hurt the band/label is if someone is seriously planning a reissue.

Regarding the number of metal heads then versus now, I'm not sure there's that many more today. Metal was very popular in the US and UK in the 80s; I seriously doubt the US fanbase is as large today, I don't know about the UK. So Metal may have gained more fans in places like eastern Europe, but it's probably lost fans in the US. And even if the number of fans is larger now, it really depends on how many fans are buying the material, not just downloading 99% of their collection.

Until the late 90s, your only options to hear a metal record were:
-buy it
-tape trade for it
-hope a friend has it
-hope you have a local metal radio show that can play it

Thus, folks often bought stuff with little-no idea of what it sounded like. Today, there's no reason to do that. You can Youtube it, Myspace it, blog it, Pandora it, Rhapsody it... plenty of ways to hear it without paying for it. So even if there are more metal heads today, I gotta believe they are purchasing less music overall. If for no other reason, they can preview albums online and then only buy the ones they like, rather than having to 'take a chance' and buy some albums without hearing them b/c that's the ONLY way they can find out what it sounds like.

[doomedplanet]

Cochino, I think you really don't understand some labels at all. Some are into it for the money. Big labels like Nuclear Blast, whatever, those guys know how to make money.
I cannot speak for Hells Headbangers since I don't know the guy. But I can speak about Yosuke at NWN! because he is a friend of mine, I've known him for a long time now. He isn't into it to get rich or make tons of money. I do not know the specifics of his business, nor do I want to know, it isn't any of my business to know the details, but he has a good job and fuels the label with this cash I am sure. He is a serious metal maniac. He is as fanatical as some obsessed metalhead in a band that is doing it for the love of his music. His label/distro is fueled by his day job. Sure he probably makes back his money on some releases, but if you look at his cheap prices (come on, $5 for a new cd. That is almost free) and the QUALITY of what he is making, he isn't getting rich. Far from it I guess, my suspicion is that any "profit" goes to make up for the records that don't sell for shit. Making Die-hard editions helps to make his money back off of a HUGE investment. I bet some ot these box sets he has done cost $30K+. If you want to survive you have to at least make that money back as a small label. Most small labels(like mine) wouldn't touch a big investment like that, too risky.

The above example is exactly how it was for my label. For the THOUSANDS of hours i but into it, I probably made $200-$500. Maybe. if so it was lost in the noise. So lets say I ran my label for year and made $.10 an hour. I think saying "Fuck this label" and sticking with my real income that paid a living wage made a lot more sense. So stick to talking what you know about, there are crazy small labels not just into it for the "profit"

I'm not sure if there's more people that don't care, there's just more people exposed to this kind of music. Honestly, I don't know how much more people bought records in the 80s than nowadays. There are lots of countries were albums were rarely released back then and get official releases nowadays, not counting you can buy through internet pretty much anything you want so in an international level I think the market is much bigger nowadays. Also, for labels it doesn't matter the percentage of people who care or not care, but the amount. Let's say that today only 25% (just to put a random number) of those who listen to an album have actually bought it, and it the 80s it was 50%. Are you sure than nowadays 25% of metalheads is less people than 50% in the 80s? I'm not so sure about that, mostly concerning that international aspect I mentioned earlier. Sure, it might have been a golden time where sells were better but that's how things work. Everything has a peek and then goes down. But with so many bands and so many releases, I'd hardly say that mp3's and the internet are killing music and labels. Somehow it's hard for me to believe so much people is willing to lose lots of money. If there's labels like NWN or Hell's Headbangers releasing 10 different versions of "cult" bands and they're still in the market and releasing more and more stuff every day I'd say it's because they're making money out of it. Of course, some labels and bands make money, some not too much and some lose but that's not exclusive of the internet age and certainly not a consequence of filesharing.

[ION BRITTON]

I'm not sure if there's more people that don't care, there's just more people exposed to this kind of music. Honestly, I don't know how much more people bought records in the 80s than nowadays. There are lots of countries were albums were rarely released back then and get official releases nowadays, not counting you can buy through internet pretty much anything you want so in an international level I think the market is much bigger nowadays. Also, for labels it doesn't matter the percentage of people who care or not care, but the amount. Let's say that today only 25% (just to put a random number) of those who listen to an album have actually bought it, and it the 80s it was 50%. Are you sure than nowadays 25% of metalheads is less people than 50% in the 80s? I'm not so sure about that, mostly concerning that international aspect I mentioned earlier. Sure, it might have been a golden time where sells were better but that's how things work. Everything has a peek and then goes down. But with so many bands and so many releases, I'd hardly say that mp3's and the internet are killing music and labels. Somehow it's hard for me to believe so much people is willing to lose lots of money. If there's labels like NWN or Hell's Headbangers releasing 10 different versions of "cult" bands and they're still in the market and releasing more and more stuff every day I'd say it's because they're making money out of it. Of course, some labels and bands make money, some not too much and some lose but that's not exclusive of the internet age and certainly not a consequence of filesharing.

Didn't say anything about percentages...Either it's 1 out of 2 or 1 out of 100 potential buyers that buys the stuff in the end, the result is the same for the labels. It probably seems uglier to them since it's hundreds of people that have a chance to hear the stuff before some of them actually buy it either by listening through some mp3s or youtube or whatever, while some years ago, like nightsblood said, it wasn't that easy to hear so effortlessly so many new bands. Fact is (and that is which probably annoys the labels) that now there are far too many people who have a chance to hear their releases but only few care about it and buy it in the end. I guess it wouldn't be so irritating and it wouldn't become such an issue if the potential buyers were 60-70% less than they are today with the use of internet.
But I insist on this and forgetting the number of sales for a moment, the new generation has a different mentality and I'm sure that on their case the percentage of the people who actually buy original copies is much less than the one of those who started listening to music long before rapidshare era. And with that mentality the future of music industry certainly does look bleak, you can't always expect people who are over 35 y.o. to support forever and in the same way they did in their teens and 20s the whole thing (family, different priorities in their life etc etc)

[Eskew Reeder]

I guess what I don't understand is how most of us agree that to take a band's music and bootleg it without their permission is wrong.

But if you do the same thing and distribute it for free that makes it ok.

One is feeding the distributors pocketbook while the other is feeding the distributors ego.

I don't see how one can be acceptable but the other isn't when the fact is they are both distributing music they have no rights to.

[MEXDefenderOfSteel]

from a HM musician point of view:

whats the point of releasing 1000 copies of my new CD if the "fans" will donwload it 2 months after its released...in that case its useless to print covers,make cds and pay for my expensive cover art....new pseudo metal generations are losing values here...

on a brighter side,my bandmates and i have discussed several times that finding your album on the internet is unavoidable,but its a good thing at least from the promotiong side, people is showing interest and it does feel good to be aware that people in far away countries at least listen to your music,at the end,thats the point of creating music in first place

we know we are not gonna live from our HM music,wheter is downloadable or not...but one thing is certain, claiming your are the real trve metalmaster for having tons and tons of "obscure"(my ass) mp3´s is a legit as being a doctor with a boot degree printed from the internet,that is a fact

[malegys]

Great opening post.

It's his tenth.

I noticed that afterwards..I REALLY need new glasses!